[19:51:43] Hey I_Jethrobot [19:51:53] Soni_WP - Hey Soni! [19:52:01] How have you been? [19:53:39] I've been good, mostly [19:53:48] How's everything for you I_Jethrobot? [19:54:08] Soni_WP2 - Good to hear. Things have been pretty busy for me this past week, including the weekend. [19:54:41] The good news is that we pretty much have our graphic design and development team set. : ) [19:54:47] (finally!) [19:54:55] That's great news :) [19:56:43] Our designer, Soujanyaa, Bourah, is very interested in our project, has the time to commit, and has very strong design skills for user interfaces like ours. [19:56:55] oops, too many commas there. [19:57:01] Soujanyaa Bourah is her name. [19:57:23] Cool. When does she begin? [19:57:58] This week, as soon as I get the contract back from her. We will likely be meeting this week, but I'm still waiting to hear when they are available. [19:58:47] Our front-end developer, Sohail Lalani, has worked with Soujanyaa on a number of projects. He'll be responsible for taking the graphic design files that Soujanyaa makes and converting them to HTML/CSS files appropriate for the mediawiki interface. [19:59:18] They actually live close to each other, so it's great because they will be able to work together once the graphics are worked out. [20:00:29] They are both in India, but I think they said they live closer to the Himalayas, and that they are basically in a community of developers and graphics designers. : ) [20:00:52] Ah cool. Do you know which city they are in? :) [20:01:14] I don't think they said, actually, but I will ask next time! [20:01:57] Anyway, so it's very exciting to finally get started on that part of the project. [20:02:21] I'd like to have you come to our meetings to review graphics once Soujanyaa and I get started. [20:02:58] Gotcha. :) [20:03:13] Of course, I will keep you informed about when we will meet next so I can get you introduced. : ) [20:03:44] So, as for today's business, I wanted to talk about discussions with our mentors. [20:04:11] Okay. [20:04:24] So far, I have not received any reply to my mail to Sarah [20:05:04] Soni_WP2 - That's fine, it's not absolutely necessary that we get in touch with her. [20:05:56] So, I have some vague ideas about how I imagine the Co-op working during our pilot. You might have some ideas too. [20:07:11] Specifically, about how mentors will interact in the sapce, and what kinds of things we expect them to do. [20:08:17] But before we actually go to pilot, it'll be important for us actually talk with the volunteer mentors. [20:08:31] for us to actually talk* [20:09:05] Not just about how the space will work technically, but to also discuss how it should be maintained from the mentor side. [20:11:37] We definitely want to get input from all the mentors though, because they may have some ideas that could work well. [20:12:15] So, I think we should spend some time thinking about what aspects of mentoring and maintenance we want to encourage discussion on. [20:13:33] Soni_WP2 - First, are there any ideas you had in mind about mentor expectations / actual mentoring itself / or how mentors should maintain the space? [20:14:30] I had a couple ideas, but they were pretty vague in terms of what the mentor was expected to do [20:16:08] That's OK. What did you have in mind? [20:16:41] Mostly, my idea of the actual mentoring was pretty much that the mentor have lessons pre-planned once they join the space, so they can simply transclude lessons when they get matched. So in that sense, each mentor would have something similar to a personal lesson set ready when the join the Co-op [20:17:32] The idea behind it being that it would reduce the time taken in mentoring simply because the mentor would be preparing the lesson before-hand [20:19:20] Right, so we can definitely bring this up to mentors. I think some of them would probably use a lesson format in mentoring. [20:19:47] And, we are still planning on incorporating a Resource Center with such lessons for other mentors who might be interested. [20:20:33] (We don't have any wireframes for it yet, but I've told Soujanyaa we may need one for our pilot.) [20:23:23] Soni_WP2 - We will definitely want to tell mentors about the broad categories we have for matching, so that they can prepare lessons accordingly based on what they want to do. [20:24:48] Right. I was thinking something more along the lines of the lessons mentors decide to be based on how the division of lessons has been [20:26:04] Soni_WP2 - Do you mean the bigger map of lessons we made initially? [20:27:37] I mean the list of skills we have [20:31:41] So, I think it can be helpful to show that lis to mentors as a way of saying, "Here's all the things we came up with that learners could potentially ask about. You should consider how you might go about teaching this material." [20:31:48] show that list* [20:32:19] Sounds like a plan [20:32:35] Soni_WP2 - But I don't want make mentors feel like they have to create individuals lessons for each one of these things, you know? [20:33:32] Hmmm... What do you suggest then? [20:34:16] Soni_WP2 - I think just telling them to use our list as a possible resource could be helpful. We might be able to make a simple table of it for the Resource Center, for instance. [20:35:28] Hmmm... In that case, how will the matching system work? [20:37:13] Soni_WP2 - I think Dustin's idea of simplifying the matching is best-- our categories that we developed together (Writing, Best practices, Technical, Communication, and an "Other" category) should work well. [20:37:49] Mentors will identify in at least one or all of these broad areas to help in. [20:37:57] Learners will identify ones of these areas too. [20:39:20] Which reminds me, SuperHamster (one of the volunteer mentors) suggested we might consider making a category for images. [20:39:37] Which sounds pretty reasonable to me: [20:40:04] So we've got: Writing, Images, Best practices, Technical. Communications, and "Other". [20:41:06] So any mentor matched with one of the learners would teach them everything about the category they're working on? [20:42:16] Soni_WP2 - Well, the idea is that in profile creation, learners will be able provide some more details about what they need help with. [20:42:50] And based on what they write, mentorship will be focused appropriately. It could be pretty broad, yes, but it might also be very specific. It just depends. [20:43:26] Hmmm... Based on prior experience, I'm not entirely quite sure if learners are going to be specific on wat they want to learn [20:44:10] Mostly, I notice it is a case similar to "I do not know what I want to learn" which causes newcomers to have issues understanding Wikipedia best practises [20:44:17] Sure, they might not be all the time. But the prompt they get is "What do you want a mentor to help you with?" [20:45:01] Presumably, some editors will be coming in with some situation they need help disentangling (because they do not know what they want to learn). [20:45:26] (or rather, what they need to learn to figure it out) [20:45:58] That's also why we have the "Other" category...that's not what it's going to be named by the way. [20:46:51] It's probably going to end up being something closer to "I just want to get matched to a mentor to help me." [20:47:24] Because that's the basic purpose of the space, and why we hope learners will utilize it. [20:49:24] Hmmm... I think it'll be good to have a conversation with the mentors on what they think works better. [20:49:49] Of course. [20:50:26] I get the logic of what you are saying, but I also notice the possiblity that mentors will probably be more comfortable with a division similar to what they have been following until now [20:51:16] I also wanted to ask you Soni-- what conventions at the Teahouse with Hosts work well that we should consider implementing? [20:51:53] Could you be more specific on what exactly you mean by conventions? [20:53:00] Host expectations / maintaining the Teahouse / thoughts about the maitre'd position [20:53:15] oops, that formatting was not intentional. : ) [20:55:07] Hmmm... Well as far as mantainance is concerned, I believe the Teahouse has no mantainance work for hosts. Almost everything is handled by a bot [20:56:00] One of the key things that allows the Teahouse to function this way is the fact that it is pretty centralised and has a single Questions page. But I believe the same wouldnt work for us, so we'd have to figure a different way out. [20:57:44] As for the Maitre'd, it's a good way of ensuring there is always someone or the other taking care of the minor things bots dont. For example, when a newcomer ends up placing a new question at the bottom of a page. I think it's a very sensible idea and we should also consider something siilar if needed [20:57:50] *similar [20:58:54] It's a good practice that makes hosts/mentors feel like the TH is their own, and are encouraged to be more proactive in participating there [21:00:50] Hm, good points. [21:01:20] I agree that there will probably not be a lot of maintenance that mentors will have to do... [21:01:38] the one thing I can think of is making sure that learners get matched. [21:02:00] As for the rest of host expectations, the teahouse is a lot lighter on host expectations than the Co-op can be. There it's relatively very simple for hosts to drop in or go inactive pretty much anytime they can, and that ends up giving a lot of flexiblity. However, we would be unable to implement something like that, so I'd expect us to try to introduce some degree of flexiblity but more importantly, keeping Co-op relatively lght-weight [21:02:00] for the mentor so they are more likely to stay on the Co-op than suffer from the expected Wikipedia attrition [21:03:01] ...Siko and Jonathan Morgan and I have talked a little bit about making sure there is a way to manually assign learners to mentors in case the bot breaks (which I fully expect it will). [21:03:21] Right. Weshould either hard code the matching process in the software/with the bot or figure out a way for Maitre'd/one of the mentors to do it with reasonable ease [21:03:29] Right. [21:04:20] And I agree with you on the maitre'd position for the Co-op-- we should definitely have such a position for our pilot. [21:05:13] Soni_WP2 - How would you feel taking on that position if I asked you to do so? : ) [21:06:21] I'll be more than happy to take it. :) [21:07:19] Good to hear. I was thinking it should be one or both of us, because I'd rather the mentors in the project focus on actual mentoring. [21:09:08] Hmmmm... I actually was thinking that maybe it'd be a good idea to encourage other mentors to take up the maitre'd position. That way, we could basically involve them with the functioning of the Co-op more while making sure they want to stay and mentor. [21:09:56] Basically along similar lines to my thoughts about keeping the co-op lightweight, I believe there could be incentives for mentors to continue mentoring [21:10:32] Soni_WP2 - I agree, but I think we can revisit once the space has been running for a bit and we see who is really invested. [21:10:46] Right, makes sense [21:11:15] Soni_WP2 - Not to mention, available. I think many of the volunteers would be interested, but some have told me they have other commitments and priorities. [21:11:37] OK, so here's what we have to discuss with mentors: [21:13:07] 1) Talking about how the Co-op works right now (i.e. the profile creation process, how matching works, how to start and conclude a mentorship, and about stickers) [21:15:08] 2) More specific discussion about matching process and whether the current category system is appropriate. [21:17:08] 3) Discussion of mentor expectations, how to conduct themselves with learners, and trying to decide how to best incorporate flexibility in mentoring. [21:18:02] 4) Talking about a "Maitre'd role", how they are tasked with matching folks, and making sure the space is running smoothly. [21:19:51] The other matter that I'm interested in discussing, though it will likely not be relevant until after our pilot, is what to do if we have a bad mentor. [21:20:31] i.e. not just ones who are clearly not ready to mentor, but mentors who harass or who are uncivil or verbally abusive to learners. [21:21:47] Hmm.... One way it could be dealt with will be with the help of current mentors/maitre'd. Basically mentors keeping a check on peers is a good practise that has worked so far at the Teahouse, but it'll have to be adopted for Co-op specifically [21:21:59] This isn't a likely scenario, but it's an important one. Right now, a learner (who is new to Wikipedia) doesn't really have an obvious way to let someone know if they are being harassed by their mentor. [21:22:16] Oh, you mean like Not-civil mentors [21:22:39] Yeah. [21:22:47] In that case, I'm of the opinion that we should politely but firmly ask them to leave. [21:22:53] I agree that the check would be a good practice for the maitre'd role. [21:24:01] Agreed, I think prohibiting them from participating in the space is fair. [21:24:28] If that request is not followed, we can simply take it to AN/I with evidence. [21:24:57] (Not my favorite place to go, but we'll go there if we have to.) [21:25:41] Jonathan Morgan is working with a developer on the matching and some bot work-- her name is Frances Hocutt. [21:26:26] She brought this idea to my attention-- that because we have people working closely together like this, there should be some way for the learner to report any inappropriate behavior. [21:26:29] I dont think that will be needed in any case. If the members of a Wikiproject find a member disruptive, they can simply ask that member to leave, so I believe the Co-op could also do the same [21:27:26] Hmmm... I personally would not be worried about something like that happening. What's more likely is if a mentor is unsuitable/inexperienced to mentor, in which case we'd need gentler but similar measures [21:28:03] Soni_WP2 - I agree it's probably not likely, but I would rather be prepared for it. [21:28:24] And yes, the situation you describe will definitely be common post-pilot. [21:28:35] (Just as it is in the Teahouse right now). [21:29:37] Oh, the last thing we will want to let volunteers mentors know about is that they'll be asked to be interviewed about their mentorships after the pilot. [21:31:05] Soni_WP2 - Also, there was that whole thing with Gender Gap WikiProjec where its participants asked some editors to leave and that caused a big ruckus that's now being handled at ArbCom... [21:31:37] Ah. I wasnt aware of that. [21:31:40] ...not saying that will definitely happen to us, but stuff like it has escalated before. : \ [21:32:26] OK, I think that is good preparation for now. [21:33:07] I'll want to see if folks would like to discuss things over Hangouts, or whether we can just chat about them on-wiki, at the Wikipedia talk:Co-op page. [21:33:16] or IRC or something. [21:33:17] We'll see. [21:34:11] Soni_WP2 - Last thing, which I mentioned in my e-mail... [21:34:41] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o0BaBWkPe1jK1PMwog33QQs6-QjfBv5Qk294Y2kUPaI/edit?usp=drive_web [21:35:36] I want you to contact the folks on this list who haven't been contacted yet to see if they're interested in participating as a mentor. [21:35:54] We are moving the pilot date up to January - February because we'll need some more time for development purposes. [21:36:15] So be sure to mention that. You can look to some of my invites like this one if you need a template: [21:37:04] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tokyogirl79&diff=prev&oldid=632517398 [21:37:47] I try to specify why they would be helpful mentors based on what kind of editing they do. [21:38:16] Soni_WP2 - Do you think you can contact everyone this week? [21:38:46] Alright, sure. [21:39:50] Thanks. : ) [21:40:06] Is there anything else you want to disuss, I_Jethrobot? [21:40:20] I think that is good for today. [21:40:39] I'll keep you posted about meeting this week with Soujanyaa (and possibly Sohail). [21:40:52] Sure thing [21:41:19] Alrighty. Good meeting today, Soni. I'll talk to you later this week. : ) [21:41:30] Bye I_Jethrobot :)