[01:52:10] I_Jethrobot|away, ping [01:55:32] Poke me when you get back. I just got up so iit may take me a sec [01:55:44] hey tos [01:55:58] hey I_Jethrobot [01:56:31] So, what kind of time do you have right now? [01:56:48] (Also, if you need some time because you just got up, no problem) [01:57:18] Well yes I'll need a few minutes to make suure I'm not too sleepy [01:57:38] Butotherwise I guess I'll have sufficient time [01:58:48] No problem. Take whatever time you need to get to stretch, get some food, etc. [01:59:19] I have the next several hours, basically until I'm ready for bed. : ) [02:01:06] Alright sure. Will we be on IRC or should i try fix m speakers for a hangout? [02:02:17] Nah, let's stick to IRC. I think this will be fine. [02:03:38] Just let me know whenever you're ready. [02:07:33] I'm bacl and seem to be reasonably sane.... [02:07:42] So ready when you are I_Jethrobot [02:07:52] Good enough for me. : ) [02:08:52] Alright. So what are we planning to work on today? [02:09:03] Right. So I've made up a small to-do list based on our discussion on Tuesday. [02:09:44] And back [02:09:50] phew! [02:09:57] Where's the to-do list? [02:10:01] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dvjZNbidwUEHWaj5te-MNRF8WYw-CFvWYfX-YxpZKqY/edit [02:10:13] Just at the bottom of the notes we made for the meeting. [02:10:53] I've taken a look at the spreadsheet... [02:11:55] Did you copy the type of editors to the end of the list of skills list? [02:12:14] Not yet. [02:12:37] Ah, I guess Jake did [02:12:59] I think the list looks good so far, but I thought it'd be good if we used the list of resources we discussed to make sure we haven't missed anything. [02:13:09] Well I'm deleting points 31 and later in the first sheet [02:13:26] Mostly because they are end-goals for our mentees [02:13:32] Not "skills" [02:13:59] Hm. [02:14:16] You're talking about from "Finding reliable sources" down the the bottom? [02:14:23] I included them in the same list to keep track of what are the end goals for the various skills [02:14:28] *32 and later I mean [02:15:27] I think some of these could be considered skills-- information about Copyright and Bots, for instance. [02:15:29] That list will be good in framing and completing our skills list based on where to make what changes/additions [02:15:52] But GA Review, yeah. I can see how that would be an end-goal. [02:16:30] But in most cases, there would still be a lot more to do. Like people who need to have Bots as an end goal need a specfic lesson about Bots Approval Group [02:16:45] Yeah. [02:16:50] While someone for Copyright will require a similar lesson on OTRS [02:17:07] So deleted [02:17:55] Have you had a chance to check out WP:STUDENT or the Ambassador program? [02:18:29] Not in depth. I've checked them out but not in enough detail. [02:18:40] Shall I go through them right now first? [02:18:47] I think that's be a good place for us to start, then. [02:19:01] I'll take the Ambassador program, why don't you check out WP:STUDENT [02:19:12] Sure thing [02:19:13] The "Beginner" level skills look a little slim right now. [02:19:57] I agree. Mostly because I'm planning to add only the bare essentials required to start editing Wikipedia [02:19:59] So, for now, as you're adding them in, just focus on filling in their level, area, and subcategory. And if you're not sure, just let me know and I'll give you my two cents. [02:20:09] Gotcha [02:20:12] (And I'll do the same) [02:22:52] Just ping me by saying tos whenever you want me to look into something. I'll check out WP:STUDENT until then [02:23:41] Great, thanks. [02:25:08] I really like the way WP:STUDENT uses wording like "By the end of this section, you should be able to answer: [02:25:08] What are Wikipedia's core policies and guidelines? [02:25:08] How are copyright and plagiarism handled on Wikipedia? [02:25:08] " [02:27:45] tos - Agreed-- those will be helpful for the "I want to..." column. [02:27:47] I_Jethrobot, I think point 6 (Civility and AGF) should be classified under Beginner" [02:31:56] Sure, I think that's something we'd want to cover early. [02:33:30] Changed [02:34:42] tos - I'm a little curious about what the "Introduction to Wikipedia" is going to cover. It seems a little unspecific. What do you think? [02:36:59] Well what i had in mind like like a rundown to the little things about Wikipedia we consider trivial. Like how it's edited by real people, how we refer to Policy over other factors and sort of just a brief intro before we go to 5Pillars/other policies [02:37:27] Kind of like a starting point right before we introduce the Pillars [02:38:27] So, just a basic description of how Wikipedia works with respect to editing and making editing decisions? [02:39:20] Thats what I planned, yes [02:39:50] Sounds pretty good to me. [02:41:05] tos - Ah, thanks for the frame. That's much better. [02:42:37] I_Jethrobot, Just a question. What exactly is the purpose of "Draws on" and "Leads to" [02:43:20] Link us to relevant skillsets which serve similar to prequisites/next stage in editing? [02:43:29] tos - It's a couple of things... [02:44:23] tos - Yes, we will want to have recommendations for what learners should feel comfortable doing before they are mentored for a more advanced skill. [02:44:44] tos - Also, we can use that to make suggestions to editors about what they might want to learn next. [02:45:10] So Leads To = Suggestion for next skill to learn [02:45:24] Is that correct? [02:45:26] That's right. [02:45:40] Got it [02:45:46] And if a skill doesn't necessarily lead to something, that's fine. [02:47:06] Sure. [02:47:27] Would it make sense to add another coloumn listing down "What could you try out" [02:49:26] tos - Will that mean something different than "Leads to"? [02:49:46] Leads to = Next skill to learn about [02:50:03] What can you try out = Apply the skill you just learnt. [02:50:17] Ah, I see. [02:51:13] To an extent, we're trying to capture skill applications in the "I want to..." column. [02:51:19] But we won't be able to get them all. [02:51:43] So sure, why don't you add a 2-3 columns of "What could you try out" [02:52:41] Yes. In my opinion "I want to..." will end up describing our section, while "What could you try" will be more along the lines to listing of various locations they could work [02:52:42] That's really important actually-- we'll need to ensure editors know what they're able to do with a new skill. [02:53:20] Agreed. Good ideas there. : ) [03:02:08] tos - I was wondering whether we should consider breaking down the editing permissions rather than make them a single concept. [03:02:29] Agreed, but what do you plan to break them down into? [03:02:33] I mean, I think teaching about permissions and how they work is good. [03:03:11] Like Basics in one, and detailed explanations in the other? [03:03:21] Yeah, I think so. [03:03:48] Sounds good [03:06:26] I was thinking also that a few of the rights could use a little more explanation. Rollback, reviewing, and maybe even template editor come to mind. [03:07:54] Not so much for autopatrolled, and definitely not for the admin / bureaucrat levels though. [03:08:07] I'm guessing the Advanced course will cover it, no? [03:08:25] (Intermediate I suppose) [03:10:44] Yeah, I could see it either way. [03:10:55] I_Jethrobot, I believe Rollbacker/Reviwer detailed will be in Advanced [03:11:39] tos - Sure, no objections here. [03:19:04] tos - OK, I think I've gathered what I could from the Ambassador resources. [03:19:19] Alright. [03:19:48] I'm still looking into WP:STUDENT and it's taking a while [03:20:17] (Mostly because I'm also checking our other resource and documentation in parallel when seeing any skill [03:20:18] ) [03:42:17] I_Jethrobot, WP:STUDENT has been covered [03:42:49] tos - Excellent. Our list is a lot more comprehensive. [03:42:56] Yep [03:43:37] Just filling in a few of the levels / areas here... [03:45:21] Alright. I'll be back in a couple minutes. Let me know when you're done [03:48:26] Sorry about the numbers there... [03:49:45] Minor fix there, no worries [03:50:32] I've created a new sheet to keep tabs on what additional resources we can look into later on [03:54:08] Sorry I got dced [03:54:33] no problem. [03:55:54] tos - So, I think this is a good working list for now. We may add more or change it up a bit in the next week or so. [03:56:15] Agreed. [03:57:38] But for now, I think we can start to think about crafting the "I want to", "leads to" and "what can I try out" statements. [03:57:49] Obviously we won't finish all that today. [03:58:14] Alright. [03:58:30] tos - Before we get started though... [03:58:50] I did want to talk about reporting. [03:59:19] I had a meeting with Siko today just to go over some of the grant logistics. [04:00:18] And so, we talked about reporting, where she explained that monthly reports are pretty informal. [04:00:50] They don't necessarily need to be comprehensive lists or discussions of everything we accomplished in the last ~30 days. [04:01:49] Yeah, I remember her saying about it during our previous meeting with her. [04:02:13] And the form the report can take can be varied as we move along. [04:03:19] I know I've asked you to handle reporting from month to month; I think that will be the case most of the time. But I think I'd like to have Gabe and I cover a few months as well. [04:04:13] Mostly because I think I'd like to have everyone from the team have a chance to discuss how the project is going from their POV, since we'll all be working on different tasks. [04:06:07] Another thing we talked about is that the monthly report should be aimed at folks who are interested in our project, so we might want to consider certain media to showcase our progress. [04:06:38] Anyway, with that all said, do you have any ideas right now on how you wanted to do your report? [04:07:15] (e.g. where to publish it, what form the report will take, what do you want to write about, etc.) [04:07:18] Well most folks interested in our project should be onWiki, I suppose [04:07:32] So I was thinking a location onWiki will be best [04:07:47] Sure, that would work well. [04:08:10] (I have some ideas to offer, but I just wanted to know what ideas you might've had.) [04:08:53] (Our first report is obviously far off, so it's OK if you're not sure at the moment.) [04:09:15] I dont, really. [04:10:22] That's fine. [04:10:35] What are your ideas on how to write about it? [04:12:05] Well, I was thinking that progress reports, where we summarize the tasks we've completed have a lot to offer. For folks interested in how the project is going, they can keep track of where we are. [04:12:28] So, that's one option. [04:13:15] I am not sure if Newsletters will be viable alternate options [04:13:53] Yeah, I think the newsletter idea won't work well for us. [04:14:35] I think we can also talk about one specific process of our work for a report. Like right now, we've been working on breaking all of these skills down into these areas and categories. [04:15:01] I think people would want to know why we decided on these particular categories. [04:15:32] And why they're meaningful in the context of the mentorship space we are building. [04:16:22] So, I think the report can be a discussion of the behind-the-scenes work we do. [04:17:01] Yeah. [04:17:03] Instead of explaining all the tasks we worked on for a given period. [04:17:58] Even while we're explaining the behind-the-scenes, we can use the same information to tell what tasks have been done [04:18:16] Sure, I think we definitely do both. [04:18:30] The report can also be more big picture, meaning we can talk about our philosophy behind our involvement in the project. [04:18:51] Philosophy / motivation / vision. [04:19:01] whatever you'd like to call it. : ) [04:19:17] And that, too, can be tied in with the work we've done. [04:19:50] Gotcha :) [04:20:14] Siko also let me know that we could publish on the WMF blog. [04:20:45] With the understanding that we turn over a draft of the entry to them about a week ahead of time. [04:20:58] Which is pretty awesome. [04:21:00] : ) [04:22:04] Oh, and speaking of WMF, thanks to them, I'll be going to Wikimania in August! [04:22:10] Nice! [04:22:12] It'll be great to see you. [04:22:13] How? [04:23:44] There apparently were some additional funds leftover in the Scholarship fund for people to go. [04:24:05] Wow. Sounds awesome. [04:24:23] I was on the fence about going because of the cost, but Siko came back and said they could offer a partial scholarship to me (and another editor). [04:24:32] So looks like our team will be adequately represented in Wikimania. :) [04:24:45] So, it's much more affordable. [04:24:55] My flight isn't booked just yet, but I will get taking care of it this weekend. [04:25:46] I know I will be arriving on the 7th; I'd come earlier, but I actually have friends from Japan visiting, and are leaving on the 6th. [04:25:54] But I'll be there the whole time. [04:26:14] What day do you leave? [04:26:27] Anyway, yeah. It's pretty much amazing! [04:26:46] Haven't decided just yet...I might stay a little longer past the conference. [04:27:02] I've never actually been to London. [04:27:24] Cool. Are you staying in Thistle Hotel too? [04:27:54] (Thats the accomodation for all of us scholarship recipients) [04:28:09] That's right. [04:28:48] They're still taking care of my accommodations though, so I don't know who I'm with just yet. [04:28:53] Sounds good. [04:29:49] This will be the first time I'll be travelling out of India too, so I kept a couple days after the conference for sightseeing :) [04:30:03] Good plan. [04:31:15] Anyway, no need to make any decisions about reporting just now, but consider some of the things we've talked about and what you might like to do. [04:31:26] Sure, will do [04:32:17] So, back to the skill list... [04:32:39] Hm, so let's try it like this: [04:33:18] Let's make it real arbitrary, and I'll start from the bottom and you can start from top for filling out these other columns. [04:33:30] Okay. [04:33:31] Don't worry too much about resources right now. [04:33:55] I was planning on going for Leads to and Draws from, because I have a fair idea where what is [04:34:39] Sure, that's fine. [04:39:58] I_Jethrobot, What did you mean by "Find a help page" and "Reply to an editor" [04:40:39] Hm, I think Jake probably added those in before we made this list. [04:41:20] Yeah, I agree with your change to "using talk pages and discussion." [04:46:47] Would you say My First Article belongs to Beginner or Intermediate, I_Jethrobot? [04:46:59] I thought its better with Inter. [04:46:59] Hah, good question [04:48:18] I think a lot of editors will want to start writing articles early on. We do get a lot of new editors who ask for help on their first articles. [04:48:35] That said, I think it's an intermediate skill given how we've set things up. [04:48:48] Gotcha [04:48:53] I thought the same [04:49:07] I'll be back shortly, just doing some laundry. [04:56:12] Hey I_Jethrobot, there are cases where using a "Related to" is more relevant than "Draws on" and "Leads to" [04:56:25] Because topic 1 both draws on and leads to 2 [04:57:03] Like "Basic Wiki Markup" and "Talk pages and discussion" for example [04:58:07] Wait, I'm getting confused now. [04:58:21] Remind me again what's the purpose of either section? [05:03:09] tos - Sure, "draws on" means that we recommend a learner be comfortable with some skills before this one... [05:03:48] Ah. I almost got confused there [05:03:51] Fixing.... [05:03:58] And "leads to" means the current skill will allow them to learn some set of new skills. [05:04:21] it can also mean it's related to some skills in the same area. [05:04:49] Like, knowing how to participate in AfD might mean that they're interested in CSD as well. [05:04:57] But they each have different guidelines. [05:05:11] Gotcha [05:14:50] I_Jethrobot, I'm finding that each "Leads to/Draws from" needs to specify the full title name to be clear what skill connects to what [05:15:08] Sure, that makes sense. [05:15:13] You think it might be a good idea to use shorter keywords for each skill instead? [05:15:35] You can also use their skill number. [05:15:40] (for now, I mean.) [05:15:53] But yes, I think some kind of keyword might be good. [05:16:00] I dont want numbers because i might have to re-sort the list every now and then [05:16:20] Right. [05:16:31] Which will lead to remembering and changing a lot of things each time the list is sorted [05:16:41] So is keywords cool? [05:24:04] tos - Sorry, yes. [05:24:11] tos - They're looking good so far. [05:24:44] tos - Be right back. I have to take my cat outside for a bit (she gets a bit noisy otherwise.) [05:25:09] Alright. [05:38:10] tos - OK, back. [05:40:53] AFK for a while. Will check back in a few [05:47:19] And back. [05:55:18] tos - OK, so I think that's good enough for today-- we've put in a good number of hours of work and the sheet has a lot more substance to it now. [05:55:36] Alright, sure [05:55:49] I might fill in on the list once I get some free time [05:55:52] So, I'd like to continue to work on this through the next week on your own time, as will I. [05:55:53] Yeah. [05:56:28] I'll be here on IRC through the week, so if you leave me a message here, I'll see it. [05:56:42] And we can arrange to meet another time next week if you want. [05:56:56] Btw I just wanted to give a heads up that I'll be travelling from 26th to 30th [05:57:09] Got it, so maybe early next week. [05:57:32] Will be back only on 1st so maybe one before next week's meeting sounds good [05:57:50] Got it. [05:58:09] Night [05:58:12] night! [05:58:15] See you later