[15:26:20] <wm-bot4>	 Channel is now logged
[15:26:27] <halfak>	 Thanks wm-bot4 :) 
[15:26:28] <wm-bot4>	 Hey halfak, you are welcome!
[15:26:50] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Yes, I do.  I think Jake and Siko think we are much more likely to have a favorable grant if we continue to allow mentors to choose their own approach.
[15:27:28] <halfak>	 Gotcha.  So we're creating the school, not the classrooms?
[15:27:58] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Yes, I think that is a very apt way to put it!
[15:29:01] <halfak>	 Cool.  OK.  So, we're going to want to measure engagement with current mentors too since we'll need them to fill up course material. 
[15:29:25] <halfak>	 How are we going to convince/invite/encourage them to work within our mini-lesson with no assessment format?
[15:29:39] * halfak  is all questions.  

[15:29:41] <halfak>	 Sorry :\
[15:30:50] <tos>	 Guys, do you mind if I spam this channel with all conversation that has happened so far, just so they're loggged? (It'll take just a min)
[15:31:35] <halfak>	 Fine with ,e 
[15:31:44] <halfak>	 *me
[15:32:07] <halfak>	 Actually, tos
[15:32:09] <halfak>	 wait
[15:32:14] <halfak>	 just drop it on a wiki page. 
[15:32:23] <halfak>	 No sense making a mess here. 
[15:32:32] <halfak>	 It would be confusing for someone looking at the logs anyway. 
[15:33:03] <tos>	 halfak, I wanted to make sure all logs are at the same location.
[15:33:16] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot, What do you think?
[15:33:19] <halfak>	 Hmmm...  Where does wm-bot put 'em
[15:33:21] <halfak>	 ?
[15:33:21] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - I have to leave shortly, but hang on...
[15:33:29] * tos  points to topic

[15:34:07] <halfak>	 tos, let's at least wait until conversation lulls
[15:34:19] <tos>	 Alright.
[15:34:58] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Let me clarify-- it's probably fine if some mentors want to issue tests to their mentees.  I think what Jake and Siko were concerned about...
[15:35:57] <I_Jethrobot>	 ...is having the proposal about making a standard test for countless skills and forcing all mentors to use those tests as a way to assess skill proficiency.
[15:36:35] <halfak>	 Sounds reasonable. 
[15:36:35] <I_Jethrobot>	 I think we tend to trust a lot of mentors and their approach, even though their exact pedagogy differs.
[15:36:46] <I_Jethrobot>	 And I think that's something we want to carry into this model of mentorship as well.
[15:37:18] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot, Just a point- almost all mentors use some test format or the other. So I guess its reasonable to assume they all would have tests, if not a standard test
[15:37:19] <I_Jethrobot>	 But I think giving mentors options is a great idea, and looking at modules from successful adopter programs is going to be really important there.
[15:38:29] <halfak>	 Thanks for helping me get a sense I_Jethrobot.  For right now, I'll steer clear of the "The Solution" section.  I'll ping Jake to see if he'll come in to hack on it with me. 
[15:38:48] <halfak>	 I think I have an ideas though, so I'll post them on the talk page if I can't get ahold of Jake. 
[15:39:18] <halfak>	 tos, this is an interesting point.  
[15:39:32] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - OK.
[15:39:36] <halfak>	 Why do you think that all mentors have tests?
[15:39:47] <halfak>	 I_Jethrobot, I'll have the measurement plan done for use by EOD. 
[15:40:14] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Excellent.  Thanks for your time.  : )
[15:40:18] <tos>	 halfak, Because it's necessary to have some way to make sure the mentees understand the topic?
[15:40:53] <halfak>	 tos, I'm with you.  Trying to wrap my head around it so that we can write about it. 
[15:41:18] <tos>	 halfak, No problem with that.
[15:41:41] <halfak>	 So, the goal of assessment: (1) figure out where mentees need more mentorship, (2) identify people who just want hats, but aren't learning the material.
[15:41:44] <halfak>	 Anything else?
[15:43:44] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Hm...
[15:44:45] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - Related to #1, assessment can be used to see whether mentors are doing their job. : )
[15:45:01] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot, I disagree
[15:45:06] <halfak>	 Gotcha. So we might have some "standardized tests"
[15:45:14] <tos>	 halfak, I think it's mostly 1. But I doubt there is anything more. (Personally, I think 2 is equivalent to 1)
[15:45:52] <tos>	 (Even if a "hat-collector" doesnt learn the material, it eventually means they need more mentorship)
[15:45:55] <I_Jethrobot>	 halfak - No, not necessarily, but obviously mentors need to be teaching and the result ought to be whether there is evidence the learner can do the skill.
[15:46:12] <I_Jethrobot>	 Anyway, I actually have to get going.
[15:46:20] <halfak>	 No worries.  Thanks I_Jethrobot. 
[15:46:24] <halfak>	 Talk to you later :) 
[15:46:38] <I_Jethrobot>	 This question of standardization is going to come up again, but I do not think we can fully resolve it for the purposes of the proposal, and that's OK.
[15:47:10] <tos>	 I agree.
[15:47:13] <I_Jethrobot>	 I don't think we need to spell it out for the grant committee, but we will have to have a more full discussion of it with more of us here.
[15:47:34] <halfak>	 +1
[15:47:46] <I_Jethrobot>	 Anyway, thanks for the input Soni and Aaron. : )
[15:48:07] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot, If we're assessing mentors, it cannot be on the basis of the tests themselves. I personally like how Go Phigstins had trainee mentors, similar to how WP:SPI has clerks and "trainee clerks"
[15:48:35] <halfak>	 :P tos
[15:48:41] <halfak>	 He said he was leaving. 
[15:48:48] <halfak>	 But i appreciate your comment. 
[15:48:52] <I_Jethrobot|away>	 tos - (the tests might just be one factor of many)
[15:48:53] <halfak>	 Trainee mentors.  
[15:48:54] <halfak>	 Hmmm
[15:48:56] <tos>	 halfak, I was typing so I just had to complete :)
[15:49:02] <I_Jethrobot|away>	 tos - (but I am really going now. :P )
[15:49:03] <halfak>	 gotcha
[15:49:59] <tos>	 And I officially declare this particular conversation closed. For the purpose of logging, I'll copy paste all the conversation that has happened before wm-bot joined
[15:50:10] <tos>	 ------------START PASTE--------------
[15:50:27] <tos>	 [18:01:16] * Now talking on #wpmentorship
[15:50:27] <tos>	 [18:01:35] <tos> Hey I_Jethrobot, mind logging this channel?
[15:50:27] <tos>	 [18:01:56] <tos> That way anyone who's not online now can catch up with whatever discussion happened
[15:50:27] <tos>	 [20:01:24] <I_Jethrobot> tos - OK, I'm logging it.
[15:50:27] <tos>	 [20:01:26] <I_Jethrobot> Thanks.
[15:50:28] <tos>	 [20:01:53] <tos> I_Jethrobot, You're logging it through a bot?
[15:50:30] <tos>	 [20:02:08] <tos> (Please ping me while replying)
[15:50:31] <tos>	 [20:03:44] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Ah, I actually don't know how to do it through a bot.  I've created a log to a local file on my computer.
[15:50:34] <tos>	 [20:03:56] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Do you know how to do it?  I don't have a lot of experience working with IRC.
[15:50:37] <tos>	 [20:04:45] <tos> I_Jethrobot, I'll get someone to implement it :)
[15:50:39] <tos>	 [20:04:55] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Thanks, I appreciate it.
[15:50:43] <tos>	 [20:05:25] <I_Jethrobot> By the way, I thought typing out someone's username pings them.  Am I missing something?
[15:50:46] <tos>	 [20:05:46] <tos> I_Jethrobot, It does. What IRC Client are you using
[15:50:48] <tos>	 [20:06:12] <I_Jethrobot> ChatZilla.
[15:50:50] <tos>	 [20:06:18] <tos> I_Jethrobot, I know a couple coders who can get it done. Mostly I wanted some logs to be online so everyone who visits the channel can see the logs, even if you are not online
[15:50:53] <tos>	 [20:06:47] <tos> I_Jethrobot, I don't have experience with chatzilla but I am using hexchat and I get pings every time you say "tos"
[15:50:56] <tos>	 [20:07:12] <tos> I_Jethrobot, Maybe you could change the settings for alerts to see if you should be getting pings and you arent
[15:50:59] <tos>	 [20:07:53] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Oh, it's no problem for me.  I'm getting pinged in the same way.
[15:51:01] <tos>	 [20:08:07] <I_Jethrobot> tos - And yes, I agree that it'd be better for the logs to be online.
[15:51:03] <tos>	 [20:08:27] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Thanks for checking into that!
[15:51:05] <tos>	 [20:09:12] <tos> I_Jethrobot, Right. With luck, we'll have a bot on this channel tonight itself :)
[15:51:07] <tos>	 [20:14:15] * I_Jethrobot is now known as I_Jethrobot|away
[15:51:09] <tos>	 [20:31:03] * halfak (~halfak@wikipedia/EpochFail) has joined
[15:51:13] <tos>	 [20:06:18] <tos> I_Jethrobot, I know a couple coders who can get it done. Mostly I wanted some logs to be online so everyone who visits the channel can see the logs, even if you are not online
[15:51:16] <tos>	 [20:06:47] <tos> I_Jethrobot, I don't have experience with chatzilla but I am using hexchat and I get pings every time you say "tos"
[15:51:19] <tos>	 [20:07:12] <tos> I_Jethrobot, Maybe you could change the settings for alerts to see if you should be getting pings and you arent
[15:51:22] <tos>	 [20:07:53] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Oh, it's no problem for me.  I'm getting pinged in the same way.
[15:51:24] <tos>	 [20:08:07] <I_Jethrobot> tos - And yes, I agree that it'd be better for the logs to be online.
[15:51:26] <tos>	 [20:08:27] <I_Jethrobot> tos - Thanks for checking into that!
[15:51:30] <tossed>	 [20:09:12] <tos> I_Jethrobot, Right. With luck, we'll have a bot on this channel tonight itself :)
[15:51:32] <tossed>	 [20:14:15] * I_Jethrobot is now known as I_Jethrobot|away
[15:51:35] <tossed>	 [20:31:03] * halfak (~halfak@wikipedia/EpochFail) has joined
[15:51:39] <tossedaway>	 [20:31:09] <halfak> hi-o
[15:51:40] <tossedaway>	 [20:31:26] <halfak> :(  no changes to "The Solution"
[15:51:45] <tossedaway>	 [20:31:39] * halfak is considering being bold
[15:51:47] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:02] <halfak> I think I'd change too much though.  I need some buy-in. 
[15:51:49] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:11] <halfak> I_Jethrobot|away, any chance you're not really away?
[15:51:51] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:20] <tos> halfak, I started off with addding the list of locations because that was the simple part
[15:51:54] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:23] * I_Jethrobot|away is now known as I_Jethrobot
[15:51:56] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:31] <halfak> Hey I_Jethrobot 
[15:51:58] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:32] <I_Jethrobot> halfak - here here.
[15:52:00] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:36] <halfak> :)  
[15:52:01] <tossedaway>	 [20:32:46] <I_Jethrobot> halfak - What did you have in mind?
[15:52:04] <tossedaway>	 [20:33:00] <halfak> So, there's a point that I think I might have failed to make during the meeting yesterday.  Soni helped me see that I didn't communicate so well. 
[15:52:07] <tossedaway>	 [20:33:35] <halfak> So the difference between know what exactly we're going to do and having a strategy for identifying and designing a good thing to do...
[15:52:10] <tossedaway>	 [20:33:46] <I_Jethrobot> Yes, I recall that point.
[15:52:14] <tossedaway>	 [20:34:08] <halfak> So, I need to have a better sense for the structure of our project to make useful edits in that section. 
[15:52:17] <tossedaway>	 [20:34:23] <halfak> re. knowing what we are doing vs. having a strategy to identify a thing to do. 
[15:52:18] <tossedaway>	 [20:36:07] <I_Jethrobot> Sure.  Well, can I ask if there are any questions that come immediately to mind that would help clarify the structure?
[15:52:22] <tossedaway>	 [20:37:24] <halfak> Yes.  Do we already have a plan spec'd out for exactly what we are going to put together.  E.g. are we designing a program that will still feature long-term mentor/mentee relationships?
[15:52:24] <tossedaway>	 [20:37:46] <halfak> Or is that something that's still up for debate or needing design?
[15:52:27] <tossedaway>	 [20:38:56] <I_Jethrobot> I think the goal is to make those relationships more lightweight, because the thought is that many users, mentor or mentee, cannot commit to the long-term.
[15:52:30] <tossedaway>	 [20:39:29] <halfak> +1.  Do we know how we'll make them lightweight?
[15:52:32] <tossedaway>	 [20:40:09] <halfak> e.g. We'll design lessons using GuidedTour on order to minimize the amount of investment necessary in order for a potential mentee to get involved in the program.
[15:52:34] <tossedaway>	 [20:41:38] <I_Jethrobot> I think the beauty is that editors who want want help learning a specific task may only require teaching of one or a handful of skills.
[15:52:38] <tossedaway>	 [20:42:16] <I_Jethrobot> And so the brevity is defined by what the learner wants to do.
[15:52:40] <tossedaway>	 [20:42:55] <I_Jethrobot> As for how we implement lesson design, I think that's something up for debate.
[15:52:44] <tossedaway>	 [20:43:24] <halfak> Gotcha.  I have a micro-proposal.
[15:52:47] <tossedaway>	 [20:43:45] 18<halfak> The reason we are trying to scale back lessons and make them more bite size is so that more newcomers will take them. 
[15:52:50] <tossedaway>	 [20:44:16] 18<I_Jethrobot> (Jake brought up implementing a resources center for mentors to use, if you remember, for which the GuidedTour may be helpful.)
[15:52:53] <tossedaway>	 [20:44:16] 18<halfak> So, one of the variables we'll try to optimize is the proportion of eligible new editors who start/complete a lesson. 
[15:52:56] <tossedaway>	 [20:46:35] 18<halfak> Do we have an example micro-lesson somewhere that I could reference?
[15:52:58] <tossedaway>	 [20:46:48] 18<I_Jethrobot> Yeah, I agree that minimizing attrition from our lessons will be helpful.
[15:53:01] <tossedaway>	 [20:47:07] 19<I_Jethrobot> tos can probably point you in the right direction there.
[15:53:03] <tossedaway>	 [20:47:57] 18<I_Jethrobot> But let me see if I can dig up something from Steve's adoption work...
[15:53:06] <tossedaway>	 [20:48:41] 20* tos 30points to Jackson_Peebles' adoption program
[15:53:08] <tossedaway>	 [20:48:58] 20<tos>30 Of all programs I saw, it looked the most effective in terms of completion
[15:53:11] <tossedaway>	 [20:49:14] 18<halfak> Can you show me a lesson that you like?
[15:53:17] <tossedaway>	 [20:49:16] 19<halfak> tos: ^ 
[15:53:19] <tossedaway>	 [20:49:26] 20<tos>30 (Just based on how much I remember though)
[15:53:21] <tossedaway>	 [20:50:17] 20<tos>30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jackson_Peebles/Adoption His programme
[15:53:24] <tossedaway>	 [20:50:33] 19<I_Jethrobot> tos- Thanks.
[15:53:26] <tossedaway>	 [20:50:53] 18<I_Jethrobot> For what it's worth, this module from Steve on markup seems fairly accessible as well:
[15:53:29] <tossedaway>	 [20:51:01] 18<I_Jethrobot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Steven_Zhang/Adoption/Wikimarkup
[15:53:31] <tossedaway>	 [20:51:38] 20<tos>30 Hmm, I really need to see Steve's program. It looks good :)
[15:53:33] <tossedaway>	 [20:52:12] 20<tos>30 halfak, ^^
[15:53:35] <tossedaway>	 [20:52:27] 18<halfak> I_Jethrobot, do we know if we want to have the assignment/assessment pattern?
[15:53:38] <tossedaway>	 [20:52:48] 20<tos>30 What exactly is that pattern?
[15:53:40] <tossedaway>	 [20:53:31] 18<I_Jethrobot> halfak - I got the sense from Jake and Siko that we really should avoid rudimentary "tests" as a part of mentoring.
[15:53:45] <tossedaway>	 [20:53:49] 18<I_Jethrobot> halfak - In fact, Jake told me we should avoid using the word "tests" altogether in the proposal.
[15:53:48] <tossedaway>	 [20:55:29] 18<halfak> Gotcha.  Seems like I might want to push Jake/Siko about some of this stuff. 
[15:53:51] <tossedaway>	 [20:55:32] 18<I_Jethrobot> Let me clarify that though, what I gathered is that should avoid requiring all mentors to give a specific test for a specific skill.
[15:53:53] <tossedaway>	 [20:55:33] 23* wm-bot4 (~wm-bot@wikimedia/bot/wm-bot) has joined
[15:53:55] <tossedaway>	 [20:55:42] 19<I_Jethrobot> tos -Hooray!
[15:53:57] <tossedaway>	 [20:55:46] 19<I_Jethrobot> tos - Thanks. : )
[15:53:59] <tossedaway>	 ----------------END PASTE-------------
[15:54:06] <halfak>	 Finally!
[16:01:04] <halfak>	 tossedaway, come here
[16:01:45] <tossedaway>	 halfak, Have you made some short notes of all the conversation we had so far? I recall there were a few points worth keeping track as the proposal carries on
[16:02:57] <halfak>	 Nope.  But we should put them on the talk page. :) 
[16:03:07] <halfak>	 I'll get a couple kicked off once I have the measurement plan finished. 
[16:04:18] <tossedaway>	 +1
[16:05:06] <tossedaway>	 Once you're done with the measurement plans and the convos, give me a ping, and I'll go through to the rest to see if there are any other major plans worth discussing
[16:06:40] <halfak>	 will do. 
[16:08:38] <tossedaway>	 Gotcha. 
[16:14:29] <halfak>	 I just posted the measurement plan in step 4 of the project plan. 
[16:14:29] <halfak>	 Working on talk page discussions now. 
[16:14:29] <halfak>	 I think we should use Snuggle to invite newcomers to the program, but I'm worried about that with regards to performing a controlled experiment. 
[16:14:29] <halfak>	 I think that hostbot should be used to send invites for the experiment, but we would use both Snuggle & HostBot to send invites normally. 
[16:14:30] <halfak>	 The nice thing about HostBot is that it can randomly sample and therefore not introduce a bias. 
[16:14:45] <halfak>	 ^ posting this on talk page
[16:14:51] <tossedaway>	 +1
[16:19:21] <halfak>	 Done
[16:19:22] <halfak>	 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IEG/Reimagining_Wikipedia_Mentorship
[16:19:45] <halfak>	 Got topic on where lessons come from and how we'll do assessments too. 
[16:22:10] <halfak>	 Added one more about describing the mentor-mentee matching software. 
[16:22:32] <halfak>	 OK.  Time for me to switch tasks.  tossedaway, all is ready for your review. 
[16:23:10] <tossedaway>	 zGotcha. Will go all out right when I return from dinner in an hour or so
[20:19:05] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot, I've included matty in the group mail so he knows that we have an IRC chatroom and he doesnt miss any updates
[20:19:11] <tos>	 Hope its fine by you
[20:31:06] <I_Jethrobot>	 tos - Yes, thanks.  I didn't know his e-mail
[20:31:35] <I_Jethrobot|away>	 tos - I'll unfortunately be away for several hours.  Leave me a message here if you need to.
[20:31:44] <tos>	 I_Jethrobot|away, Got it