[03:03:28] Hey tgr, where is Media Viewer pulling licensing from, exactly? [03:03:35] Mark talked about it the other day but I forget [03:05:09] HTML markup in templates [03:05:25] historically, categories as well, that has just been removed [03:05:53] Cool, thanks! [03:21:51] Keegan, cf. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Machine-readable_data [03:22:41] Yup yup, thanks Eloquence [03:24:12] I find pointing to that page to be an increasing pivot point. Glad it's getting focus soon :) [03:36:52] I don't understand how TMH actually manages to work at all [03:38:43] bawolff: Duct tape and good intentions [03:40:53] e.g. the "mwe-embedplayer-menu_btn" message seems to get downloaded to the client when person clicks on widget, yet its not listed in any Resource module's message list [04:15:12] (03PS1) 10Brian Wolff: Fix ?embedplayer=yes mode, which is currently totally broken [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137529 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66143) [04:16:59] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3TimedMediaHandler: ?embedplayer=yes videos broken (again) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66143#c2 (10Bawolff (Brian Wolff)) Ugh. Really need to figure out how to do automated testing of this (selenium?) [04:21:14] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3TimedMediaHandler: ?embedplayer=yes videos broken (again) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66143 (10Bawolff (Brian Wolff)) [05:05:48] (03PS4) 10Brian Wolff: Output ogg metadata on image description page. [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108203 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/47487) [05:05:51] (03PS1) 10Brian Wolff: Modify Ogg handler to keep metadata comments in utf8 [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137535 [07:27:01] (03CR) 10Gilles: [C: 032] Output ogg metadata on image description page. [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108203 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/47487) (owner: 10Brian Wolff) [07:28:42] (03CR) 10Gilles: [C: 032] Modify Ogg handler to keep metadata comments in utf8 [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137535 (owner: 10Brian Wolff) [07:28:50] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Modify Ogg handler to keep metadata comments in utf8 [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137535 (owner: 10Brian Wolff) [07:28:53] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Output ogg metadata on image description page. [extensions/TimedMediaHandler] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108203 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/47487) (owner: 10Brian Wolff) [07:38:31] (03CR) 10Gilles: "Krinkle, are you happy with the changes?" [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [07:39:25] (03CR) 10Gilles: "Mark: in case you missed it, one of your tests is failing. Presumably an issue in the grep simplification." [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [07:43:40] (03CR) 10Gilles: Move funnel logging into its own component (031 comment) [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/134283 (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [07:47:59] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3GWToolset: Complex categories make GWToolset fail on step 3 (batch preview) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65620 (10Gilles Dubuc) [08:01:09] also marktraceur, https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-MultimediaViewer/blob/master/MultimediaViewer.php is totally vulnerable to register_globals [08:06:51] legoktm: who runs mediawiki with register_globals turned on? [08:07:25] no one I hope [08:07:50] but MW does technically support it (just look at WebStart.php), so MMV should too [08:08:06] then what's the best practice we're missing? [08:08:36] don't do an isset( $wgFoo) check [08:08:39] is there any reason MW did not drop support a long time ago? [08:08:42] just declare the global variable [08:09:23] I doubt there are any web hosts today which do not allow disabling register_globals [08:09:46] sure, but that's a different discussion. [08:10:36] (one that I brought up on wikitech-l yesterday when discussing something else though... http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-June/076848.html ) [08:10:43] allowing values to be set before the extension is loaded is important for extensions which support extensions [08:11:00] uhhh, what do you mean? [08:11:00] I just ran into that issue with EventLogging recently [08:12:09] if you want to use the new declaration style, $wgEventLoggingSchema['Foo'] = 1234 or something like that, you have to be register_globals unsafe [08:12:29] because EventLogging might not be loaded at that point [08:12:52] so you should do $wgExtensionFunctions[] = function() { $wgEventLoggingSchema['Foo'] = 1234; }; then [08:13:16] kind of defeats the point, this syntax was created for simplicity [08:14:10] I'd rather drop support for register_global and see if anyone complains [08:14:21] php turned it off by default in 2000 [08:14:30] anyone still using it is demented [08:14:48] it's not a good use of our resources to make it work [08:15:05] hehe agreed. want to say that on wikitech? :) [08:15:24] on that thread you've linked to above? [08:15:31] I don't think it even warrants an RFC [08:15:40] the MW installer has been showing big red warnings for ages if register_globals was enabled [08:16:22] yeah my RfC is about something else that was being hampered by register_globals [08:39:14] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not leave so many history entries when closed - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/62266#c14 (10Derk-Jan Hartman) 5RESO/WON>3REOP I'll try to explain why this is desired... https://www.google.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-118 Click... [08:47:44] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not leave so many history entries when closed - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/62266#c15 (10Gilles Dubuc) This personal preference is perfectly understood. Yet it's incompatible with updating the URL, i.e. treating the image as its own page... [08:48:43] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not update the browser's URL - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/62266 (10Gilles Dubuc) [11:00:00] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3TimedMediaHandler: ?embedplayer=yes videos broken (again) - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66143 (10Andre Klapper) p:5Unprio>3High [13:54:29] 3MediaWiki / 3File management: Display metadata from videos and audio - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/47487#c6 (10Bawolff (Brian Wolff)) 5PATC>3NEW Resetting to new. Still webm [16:04:12] Things we forgot about in the weekly meeting: Annual review bullshit [16:32:00] I think I'm done with all the annual review stuff, afaik [18:25:55] added project breakdown to etherpad; for the last cycle, MMV 54%, UW 18%, techdebt 28% [18:26:13] Wow we're terrible at life [19:06:33] marktraceur: Today i learned: You can use the space bar to scroll down [19:06:43] Heh [19:06:55] bawolff: inb4 someone replies with yet another way to scroll. :) [19:07:12] I guess you could click and drag the scroll bar [19:07:35] middle click followed by moving the mouse (on some platforms) [19:07:38] If you hated yourself [19:08:02] tab to a link that's lower down maybe [19:08:12] Hah [19:08:16] I bet that works actually [19:08:37] The up arrow thing though is really silly [19:08:45] Oh man it does [19:08:47] bawolff: Right [19:08:48] Goh [19:08:51] Gah* [19:10:35] Just noticed, in media viewer - Download in small gives you a 97px wide image. Guess its not kidding when it says "small" [19:10:44] Hm [19:10:51] It probably depends on the image [19:11:35] probably [19:43:37] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Media_Viewer#Copyright_information [19:43:49] Just silly. [19:45:22] Keegan: See below is the default in a bunch of upload tools [19:45:33] Well make it not [19:45:35] *sigh* [19:45:43] Wow fail [19:46:01] You'd have to talk to the commons community about that [19:46:01] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: Links to Wiktionary are incorrect - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66211 (10spacebirdy) 3NEW p:3Unprio s:3normal a:3None Due to distinction between upper and lower case in Wiktionary the links in MediaViewer. In the section "Used on ... pages" "On other si... [19:46:22] I guess its not the default in the upload tool so much as in the template https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Information [19:47:06] bawolff: Thanks, I replied based on that information. I didn't know that was the default [19:47:10] That's awful [19:47:20] * bawolff doesn't disagree [19:47:22] But new we need to address this "View terms" thing [19:47:26] *now [19:48:50] ugh. At the very least {{information}} shouldn't put the see below thing in the machine readable screen-scraping field [19:49:07] It would be one thing if it just displayed it put changed the id to something else [19:50:33] hmmm [19:51:14] Well, if one of you technically oriented cats can think of something to say to Spinningspark, by all means :) [20:04:39] bawolff: people will have to fix that eventually, because of Wikibase [20:05:12] they could as well start fixing it now [20:05:44] that said, replacing "see below" with a link to the file page would not be hard [20:06:15] I don't really think that makes much sense either if you're actually viewing the file page [20:09:26] certainly not, but you can at least find the license there [20:10:14] MediaViewer normally displays the license too, on the top of the metadata panel, but if the license is not parsable... [20:10:36] although we already direct the user to the file page, I think [20:13:08] what you wrote on the talk page seems like the best solution [20:32:16] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: Should have cursor: pointer on UploadWizard thumbnails in details step - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66214 (10Mark Holmquist) 3NEW p:3Unprio s:3normal a:3None The "Describe" step in UploadWizard lets you click on the thumbnail to get a preview of the image... [20:39:35] fabriceflorin: can you please give me an information, in which project stage this proposal is and if theres a timeline?: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features/New_Feature_Popup_Guider [20:44:09] fabriceflorin: https://wikimedia.mingle.thoughtworks.com/projects/multimedia/cards/696 FYI [20:44:51] se4598: This proposal has only been discussed so far, and is not scheduled for development at this point — though many of us would like to see it happen. A likely candidate for developing this feature would be the Core Features team, but they are really busy with Flow. Still, I think it would be worth pinging Danny Horn, the PM for Core Features — as well as Jared Zimmerman, Director of UX, who is actively championing this type of [20:44:52] solution. It’s not rocket science, and would take about a week to build (10 points), but not team has it in its charter, so it keeps falling off the radar. It might be possible to outsource that work to a savvy developer that is intimately familiar with Wikimedia development and deployment practices, if we could find the right person. [20:45:38] ok, thanks for the update [20:46:58] James_F: What's this I hear about OOUI being agora-fied? [21:05:29] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: Should have cursor: pointer on UploadWizard thumbnails in details step - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66214#c1 (10Tisza Gergő) cursor: zoom-in makes more sense to me. [21:06:22] ...the shoe has dropped. The call to fire everyone has occurred. Congrats, team :) [21:09:10] It took something like four years of being an admin on en.wp before I got the first suggestion I be desysopped for incompetence. It hurts when it takes years for them to notice you :( [21:12:16] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not update the browser's URL - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66217 (10Tisza Gergő) 3NEW p:3Unprio s:3minor a:3None One way to reduce the inconvenience of MediaViewer leaving extra history entries would be to not modify the URL bar... [21:23:14] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not update the browser's URL - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66217#c1 (10Keegan Peterzell) I wouldn't mind this at all. [21:26:29] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer should not update the browser's URL - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/62266#c16 (10Tisza Gergő) "I'll update this ticket's description to be the only possible technical change, but I doubt that the product and UX teams will be interested in losing... [21:30:04] Keegan: Sorry to hear this. What happened? Was this in any way related to the Media Viewer rollout? [21:31:09] fabriceflorin: I put in the smilies because it's kind a right-of-passage releasing a major product :) [21:31:40] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/About_Media_Viewer#The_media_viewer_discourages_users [21:31:53] Always keep feedback contextual. [21:32:07] If theory were practice, James_F|Away would be legally dead :) [21:33:03] fabriceflorin: It's like, you haven't /really/ been an admin on the English Wikipedia until you've crashed the wiki :) [21:33:22] Keegan: Glad you are taking this with the right attitude. :) [21:33:23] *rite-of-passage [21:34:41] Do you think we need to respond to this guy, or just let it be? Also, are there any particular comments you’d like me to respond to? [21:36:06] No, that doesn't merit response. [21:36:52] It's hard enough for me to not be insulted on marktraceur 's behalf, as far as the insinuations about limiting free as in speech content [21:37:13] I'll figure out if I can say something non-snarkly later, if not, leave it be. [21:40:22] Keegan: As they say, not a real developer until you've taken down the site [21:41:41] bawolff: Exactly :) [21:44:31] Aw Keegan [21:44:58] Fr srs. [21:45:09] fabriceflorin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Media_Viewer#Copyright_information [21:45:30] Keegan: Thanks! I’m on it. [21:45:31] bawolff: came up with (I think) a solution, buttttt that's out of my depth [21:45:51] I mean, it's a simple as changing a line of code in the template [21:46:03] But that's unsafe for me to attempt :) [21:46:20] And then we get to watch the job queue explode :) [21:46:23] fabriceflorin: ^ [21:47:05] I'd recommend asking some local admins who usually take care of those sorts of templates what they think [21:47:12] I mean, it handled bug! to three million pages. [21:47:13] Kinda :) [21:49:42] Only 19,473,964 pages use it on commons [21:49:45] ...and this is where the fact that my work focuses on non-English projects fails, sorta. I can poke WhatamIdoing about who the proper person would be, I think [21:50:01] * Keegan headdesk [21:50:36] (On a serious note, someone vandalised {{information}} a couple months ago and nothing that bad happened) [21:51:59] Keegan: Sounds good, I’m pondering this, will ask bawolff for clarifications shortly. For now, I just updated the survey results quickly, to see where we are globally. English and German survey respondents are tied at 32% approval a day after launch, bringing our global average down to 61% — but if you look at non-editors, we’re looking at 42% and 40% approval respectively. I expect these numbers to improve once we hear more [21:51:59] from the ‘silent majority’ … https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/spreadsheets/d/1NLSPp2Ze0ekwPQXzDCQo5D1t09mxk2Yj3hNYPzqbLoE/edit#gid=1229408394 [21:52:27] * Keegan nod [21:52:31] Yeah, I'm not surprised [21:52:50] I think gi11es did a good job summarizing that trend [21:53:23] Keegan: Yes, it was a great discussion. Thanks for starting it with your good insights :) [21:53:29] It'll be interesting to revisit from the risk management perspective going forward [21:57:28] Keegan: I gotta say, I'm glad it was a firing threat and not a death threat quite yet [21:57:44] Should really ease into things [21:58:01] I wouldn't threaten your life. [21:58:05] I'm just saying I could. [21:58:13] Oh right [21:58:13] I forgot about that [21:58:17] So like...half of a death threat [21:58:41] Passive-aggressive is always the best approach [21:58:52] You should always threaten somebodies livelyhood before their life. Otherwise you can't draw out the suffering [21:59:16] That's what the Sheriff of Nottingham taught us [21:59:46] Okay, so fabriceflorin I sent an email to WhatamIdoing asking for template editor advice, you're cc'd, we'll go from there, bawolff is cool. [22:00:04] bawolff: thanks for your thoughtful suggestion on the ‘Copyright info’ thread of the Enwiki talk page. Would it be useful if I created a ticket on Mingle to document your suggestion to replace the id="fileinfotpl_perm" with your proposed code? In your opinion, would it make sense to do this as part of the upcoming structured data migration this fall? I am a bit leery about making big changes like these right now, as we are winding [22:00:05] down Media Viewer to focus more on Upload Wizard and Structured Data. [22:01:05] Its a one line change. When the mythical structured data comes, it will totally replace that template anyhow [22:03:06] Yeah, fabriceflorin, we're talking about one line change to Template:Information could probably fix this, and en.wp admin or template editor can do it [22:03:18] The question is risk [22:03:24] So we'll sort that out [22:03:35] *or commons admin, for the commons one [22:04:05] Probably not all that much risk for the enwiki one. If it doesn't work it can be reverted (The en wiki template only 159,387 usages) [22:04:20] Hm...should I be bold? [22:04:34] Keegan: Cool. Thanks for reaching out to Sherry about that as well. Sounds like this is out of our hands for now, from a development standpoint. I think I will abstain from responding, since you and bawolff have it covered. [22:05:00] Yup, wanted to make sure you knew what's going on [22:05:05] Keegan: What's life without risk? [22:05:19] True. I haven't done anything controversial this year [22:05:58] bawolff: If I ever start a punk band it will be called Young and Cranky [22:06:01] marktraceur: Does the proposal above work for you? ^ ^ [22:06:06] Uhhh [22:06:08] * marktraceur reads [22:10:31] So...https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInformation&diff=611742021&oldid=521734608 [22:10:48] bawolff: Like so? [22:10:57] yep [22:11:01] now lets see if it worked [22:11:57] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_filter#mediaviewer/File:Mechanical_filter_transducers.svg :S [22:12:42] I don't see a "see below" on that page [22:12:45] Keegan: Wow! You did it :) [22:12:54] Why...is that on WP and not Commons [22:12:56] But whatever [22:13:13] I also don't see any other copyright notices on that page... [22:13:13] Pretty darn amazing for a non-technical team member. Well done! [22:13:16] marktraceur: Spinningspark has a whole essay about not contributing to commons [22:13:36] WTF [22:13:38] ...all I did was copy and paste, but okay :) [22:13:47] marktraceur: Commons is full of porn loving degenerates :P [22:13:48] Wait. There is still a ‘See below’ in the license details. [22:13:53] Who would want to contribute there [22:14:30] bawolff: Are you kidding? PORN LOVING DEGENERATES? Thems my people [22:15:26] It's more along the lines of "put it on commons, and another community does whatever they want with your work and they don't care about you" in a nutshell [22:15:51] anywho [22:16:00] At this point I don't know if the edit worked or not :) [22:16:18] enwiki doesn't like to share [22:16:21] bawolff: Hehe. Seriously, the general goal we’re discussing is to encourage everyone to use Commons as the primary file repository over time. It just makes more sense then having a lot of different file repositories with inconsistent structures and methodologies. [22:17:39] fabriceflorin: Sure, but a lot of people hate, or at least severely dislike, the commons community for whatever reasons [22:17:43] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Spinningspark/Why_I_don%27t_upload_to_Commons [22:17:44] bawolff: What I’m not sure about, though, is what to do with ‘fair use’ files. Is there a machine-readable way to flag a file as ‘fair use’? If so, could we imagine a scenario where ‘fair use’ files could be uploaded to Commons, but with big warnings that the file cannot be used in the same way as other files? [22:18:08] Fair use files will *never* be uploaded to commons [22:18:09] Ever [22:18:13] Well you just walked into a political swamp there! [22:18:55] Commons is the *free* media repository [22:19:12] Keegan: My hope is that over time, the community issues could become less of a concern, compared to the benefits of having a unified file management system, with consistent tools, UIs and practices. [22:19:17] Yeah no [22:19:29] There are more than just community issues at work here [22:19:39] There's been proposals on and off to have a second joint repository full of fair use media [22:19:56] but usually it doesn't get much traction [22:20:01] Frankly, the English Wikipedia is the only one that even considers fair use [22:20:03] bawolff: Go on. You have my attention. [22:21:36] There may be some advantages to having a separate ‘fair use’ file repository that uses the same technology and UI as Commons, for consistency. [22:21:38] Keegan: not just enwiki, there's a couple others. But enwiki is the most known - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Non-free_content [22:21:47] * bawolff is trying to find the non-free commons proposal [22:22:05] Sure, I thought I typed "For the most part" :) [22:22:14] Is there a machine-readable tag that could let us identify ‘fair use’ images, and at least get a count? [22:22:16] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NonFreeWiki [22:22:56] "Non-free content used under an EDP must be identified in a machine-readable format so that it can be easily identified by users of the site as well as re-user" [22:23:02] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fair_use_images [22:23:04] To quote the official WMF resolution [22:24:28] bawolff and Keegan : Thank you both for this helpful info on fair use! I will include these links in our documentation of this issue, which goes beyond Media Viewer and will impact our plans for both Upload Wizard and Structured Data. [22:24:39] 108,000 non-free logos. I'm sure they're all swell :) [22:24:50] There's 499,476 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:All_non-free_media [22:25:14] fabriceflorin: Part of the problem is that fair use criteria differ between languages [22:25:37] Usually they try to be legal in both United States, and in whatever region the language is associated with [22:27:52] bawolff: Wow, that is a significant number. And the different criteria is also concerning. We’ll want to engage our communities to figure out a practical solution together, so we can serve their needs effectively with the new tools, rather than let them sit to the side in ‘fair use ghettoes’ that are stuck with old tools … A tough puzzle to solve. [22:28:05] For reference, that's 59.3% of all files on commons [22:28:13] *all files on enwikipedia [22:28:44] bawolff: I thought all the files on enwiki were more like 5% of Commons, based on the 800k estimate you gave me last year. [22:29:37] I made a typo. I mean there's 840931 on enwikipedia, 499481 are fair use, so that's 59% of the files on enwikipedia being fair use [22:30:12] bawolff: Thanks for this clarification, very helpful. I will update our stats spreadsheet with these new numbers now. [22:31:45] fabriceflorin: we can identify enwiki fair use files based on their categories, should not be problematic [22:31:56] ^ yup [22:32:34] bawolff: soon we can have a proposal on having a joint *metadata* repository for fair-use files on Commons [22:32:37] that will be fun [22:32:52] Good luck with that one ;) [22:33:15] 3MediaWiki / 3File management: Database error at undeletion (race condition?): LocalFileRestoreBatch::execute Error: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; try restarting transaction - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/48636#c6 (10Aaron Schulz) 5NEW>3RESO/FIX Probably fixed in https://gerrit.wikimedia.or... [22:33:16] fabriceflorin: For reference, we are up to 21,511,114 files on commons [22:33:19] then second joint metadata repository, etc [22:33:20] tgr: Thanks for this. So if this becomes a serious issue, we could possibly disable Media Viewer for fair use files — or disable the download portion to discourage folks from downloading such fair use files. [22:33:24] Almost all of them free [22:33:55] honestly though, having a separate wikibase instance on every wiki for file management, with separate properties etc sounds like a nightmare [22:34:26] keeping all the template parsing in extistence for the non-Commons files is not much better either [22:34:29] 3MediaWiki / 3File management: Database error at undeletion (race condition?): LocalFileRestoreBatch::execute Error: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; try restarting transaction - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/48636#c7 (10Aaron Schulz) Also https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/134502/ [22:34:59] so a shared fair use metadata repository seems unavoidable to me [22:35:04] Hmm, a bit less than 10,000 non-free files on commons [22:35:58] tgr: It's a nightmare within a nightmare within the nightmare that we're in? How meta :) [22:36:17] Everyone should just use text browsers [22:37:00] I think there would be serious resistence to doing anything fair use related on commons [22:37:38] I think saying it would be serious resistance would be an understatement :) [22:37:43] bawolff: hehe. I’m adding these new numbers in the spreadsheet, for the record. Do you have any links we could use as sources to the fair use estimates on enwiki and commons? [22:38:20] fabriceflorin: Commons has no fair use. Only non-free stuff (other then things awaiting deletion) is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Copyright_by_Wikimedia [22:38:30] 3MediaWiki / 3File management: internal_api_error_DBQueryError when moving files - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/37519 (10Aaron Schulz) 5PATC>3RESO/FIX [22:38:52] bawolff: that's the official line, anyway [22:39:04] bawolff: Thanks for the correction. Where did you get the enwiki number from? [22:39:08] there is lots of borderline stuff there [22:39:23] There's a count of everything fair use at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:All_non-free_media#mw-category-media [22:39:45] Sort of anyways, its off by 1 [22:39:51] which is close enough imo [22:40:00] bawolff: Splendid, thanks so much! You are a goldmine of useful information :) [22:40:15] files affected by URAA restoration, for example [22:40:36] Oh right. Forgot about those [22:41:18] tgr: If there's two things I've learned about copyright law - 1) Its stupid. 2) Its not clear cut [22:41:27] What is the difference between non-free and fair use? Does the former contain the latter? How many fair use are there versus non-free? Are there other large categories of non-free we should be paying attention to? [22:42:21] fair use is a subset of non-free images [22:42:56] In theory its supposed to be the only main subset we allow [22:43:04] bawolff: Yeah, copyright law was created so long ago, they never planned for this global sharing stuff. It is due for a major overhaul, but it’s a hard political issue. We may have to wait until sovereign nations give way to a new global order :) [22:43:47] fabriceflorin: Hey, some of the stupider stuff is newer [22:43:50] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content [22:44:06] OK, so is it safe to assume that the majority of non-free files are fair use on enwiki? what about on commons? [22:44:19] At WikiConference usa I learned that freedom of panorama exists only if you don't publish your image on the internet [22:44:29] for Sweeden [22:45:01] Yah, the laws around taking pictures of Monuments is nuts, particularly in the EU [22:45:11] Which is why I'm always amazed WLM works [22:45:28] fabriceflorin: Commons is supposed to be "all free". A small number of exceptions are made for project logos and the like, which are all rights reserved by WMF [22:46:25] bawolff: So are the 10,000 non-free files on commons you cited above mostly files that are about to be deleted? [22:46:42] fabriceflorin: The 10,000 files are things with Wikimedia logos in them [22:46:44] fabriceflorin: As an example Evan-Amos gave me: he has no problem taking pictures of say, a Milky Way candy bar and putting it on Commons [22:46:47] or screenshots of our site [22:46:57] What he *cannot* put on Commons is a picture of the wrapper [22:47:27] bawolff: Got it. So not a major use case for our purposes, but we’ll track it for the record. [22:48:15] Keegan: Thanks for the clarification from Evan-Amos. Matches my understanding as well. [22:48:21] fabriceflorin: And there's URAA (which tgr mentioned) which are technically copyrighted due to a court decision in the USA, but are unlikely to actually be enforced because they are out of copyright in their home country. As far as I can tell the foundation just threw up their hands on that one and said wtf...I can't even care anymore [22:51:05] bawolff: Yeah, sometimes you have to cut your losses and focus on the main use cases. With only 0.05% of files on Commons being non-free, I don’t think we need to lose too much sleep about that minor use case. Do we have a sense of how large the URAA content base is? Is it also just a few thousand images, or a lot more? [22:51:38] We're officially considering URAA files sort of free because we don't want to deal with them (I think) [22:52:33] OK, sounds good. Thanks for this great lesson: I just learned a lot, and this will inform our next steps for these issues. [22:53:47] wtf is an Alien Property Custodian [22:54:46] Alien Property Custodian? [22:54:56] bawolff: Guards at the Area 51 evidence lockers? [22:55:10] Area 51 evidence lockers? [22:55:19] * marktraceur wants to believe [22:55:57] I think it applies to works claimed by the US government because they were made by an enemy of the United States [22:56:25] Whoa, that's cool [22:56:46] Do we actually have a category for that? [22:58:05] I don't think so. Its just mentioned in a guide about if URAA restores the copyright https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:URAA-restored_copyrights#Exceptions [23:41:25] bawolff, I think that's largely nazi stuff