[00:11:59] (03PS3) 10MarkTraceur: Tooltips for loads of things [extensions/MultimediaViewer] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136508 [00:12:07] Have I said recently that I hate computers [01:25:11] (03CR) 10Gergő Tisza: Support shared DB version of Commons definition (031 comment) [extensions/MultimediaViewer] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136444 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [05:37:52] tgr: do you have the patchset link handy for the "Enable Media Viewer" change and backport? [05:38:42] It's not on Mingle 622 or in my email [07:32:28] (03CR) 10Gilles: [C: 032] Handle id="fileinfotpl_credit" and class="licensetpl_attr" [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136833 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/57460) (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [07:32:34] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Handle id="fileinfotpl_credit" and class="licensetpl_attr" [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136833 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/57460) (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [07:38:40] (03CR) 10Gilles: "I'm going to let Mark review this, when I saw his complex addition the other day I thought he was maybe trying to make it behave this way " [extensions/MultimediaViewer] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136905 (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [08:01:00] gi11es: bonjour. the qunit job for UploadWizard should be voting now :) [08:23:09] (03CR) 10Gilles: [C: 04-1] Massive refactor (032 comments) [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [08:23:47] (03CR) 10Gilles: "recheck" [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [08:24:46] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: UploadWizard should pass qunit - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65151 (10Gilles Dubuc) 5PATC>3RESO/FIX [08:32:46] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: UW fails to load with "Unknown error: "unknown".", js error - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958#c3 (10Gilles Dubuc) PHP fatal error in /srv/common-local/php-master/extensions/CommonsMetadata/LicenseParser.php line 51: Argument 1 passed to CommonsMetadata\LicensePar... [08:35:47] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: UW fails to load with "Unknown error: "unknown".", js error - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958 (10Gilles Dubuc) a:5Mark Holmquist>3Tisza Gergő [08:38:48] (03PS1) 10Gilles: Avoid trying to sort licenses when there are none [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136986 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958) [08:58:13] (03CR) 10Gilles: [C: 04-1] "The next image and prev image texts don't work for me: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cvja3olzw4z8dgm/Screenshot%202014-06-03%2010.54.44.png" [extensions/MultimediaViewer] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136508 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [11:42:16] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3UploadWizard: UploadWizard hangs browser on entering image description - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/54994#c17 (10Sandra Fauconnier) I have had exactly the same problem, for at least five times, using Chrome Version 35.0.1916.114 and Safari Version 7.0.4 (9537.76.4) on OS X 10.9... [15:12:08] (03CR) 10Anomie: [C: 032] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf6) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136718 (owner: 10Gilles) [15:12:49] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf6) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136718 (owner: 10Gilles) [16:01:59] Keegan: You ready to release some software!? [16:04:44] http://i.imgur.com/KJnk9.gif [16:05:34] gi11es: If they were running away I'd say that's what editors on enwiki are gonna look like in 5 hours [16:05:50] Did we fix the bloody sampling thing (again)? [16:15:49] Fabrice isn't around yet, is he? His mails about the Wikidata meeting keep referring to 19:30 CET, when in fact what we have scheduled is 18:30 CET [16:17:54] He has the PST time right [16:20:10] if they refer to gcal they should be fine [16:20:30] yeah, that's the problem (by the way, it's PDT, not PST right now). Yes, way too much of my brain is dedicated to timezone nonsense :-) [16:20:43] i.e. more than zero [16:20:53] 100% UTC use is necessary [16:21:57] UTC unix timestamps, for good measure [17:00:03] except that then people would change their business hours to things like 22:00-6:00 UTC, and you're right back where you started [17:00:03] robla: gi11es is right, UNIX timestamps [17:00:03] "We'll be open for N seconds starting at XXXXX" [17:00:04] ah, ok. yup, watertight. [17:00:04] I don't see what could go wrong [17:04:46] TIL: There is an en wikipedia upload wizard [17:07:52] bawolff: You didn't know that!? Oh it's awful [17:08:34] It appearently has a workflow that allows uploads without licenses - https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Sea_Hill_Lighthouse._Curtis_Island,_Australia,_May_2011.jpg&oldid=125117262 [17:08:48] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bawolff#Images_without_a_license [17:11:23] Wait...to Commons? Ugh [17:13:07] 8 [17:13:57] marktraceur: Quite frankly, I still think its a better wizard than the mobile upload [17:14:41] *nod* [17:14:46] fabriceflorin: 8 indeed. [17:15:36] marktraceur: Sorry, that 8 was unintentional. However, it is my favorite number, so I’m happy to spread it around :) [17:17:16] bawolff: What is a ‘better wizard than mobile upload?’ — I was just talking to Maryana about providing a simple upload tool to their team in the Q3 time frame … [17:18:06] fabriceflorin: I'm not a fan of the mobile upload wizard. I don't think it adequetely explains the copyright obligations when uploading, and results in a lot of copyvios [17:18:50] bawolff: Yes, I think their goal was simplicity in that first version, but we agree that the next version would need to be more sophisticated … [17:20:09] I've looked at the recent uploads from that tool before, the amount that were actually appropriate uploads was in the 1-5% range imo [17:21:37] In certain cases, like for example with bussiness articles, the mobile frontend would actively encourage people to upload things to the wrong place [17:22:29] So we end up with a lot of things like https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:This_is_the_image_of_mr-_aditya_saurabh_-who_born_on_16th_feb_1992---he_is_one_of_the_best_dude_he_is_a_lover-_boy_nd_he_knows_how_to_still_the_heart_of_different_girls_in_different_ways_but_he_is_also_a_boy_w_2014-06-03_22-02.jpg [17:23:31] All of them uncategorized, which makes it impossible to ever find them in the off chance someone uploads something useful [17:24:45] and e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flegg_High_School_logo_2013-09-30_22-19.jpg where it makes it easy for user to think they should upload logos to commons marked as own work cc-by-sa (due to the call to action for, do you have an image for this article) [17:34:24] bawolff: Thanks for this helpful info about the current mobile upload tool. I am not surprised that the amount of useful media contributed from the current mobile upload wizard would be limited. How do you base the 1-5% figure? your own evaluation? number of files used in articles? Do we have any comparisons for desktop uploads? [17:35:08] Purely anecdotally. Its a pessimistic guess, not a serious data driven evaluation [17:36:18] I looked at the list of recent uploads at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Uploaded_with_Mobile/Web and noted most of them looked either to be speedy deletion candidate, or borderline candidates that might stay but realistically are useless [17:38:10] fabriceflorin: about a year ago I did stats, which said mobile upload had 20% usage (vs 40% with upload wizard) - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Bawolff/usage_stats [17:38:23] which is much higher than I'd expect [17:38:35] Probably because it doesn't adequetely account for files that are deleted [17:41:08] bawolff: Thanks, this is really useful — and timely, as we plan our next steps for Upload Wizard with our teams. Will share this with Maryana and incorporate this in our plans. For now, I love the image of the ‘lover boy’ as an example of the issues we want to avoid :) [17:41:44] * bawolff is re-running usage stats right now [17:42:40] Hmm. usage is still at 26.2%. That actually really surprises me [17:47:59] bawolff: BTW, I have been using your file usage SQL script every few months to track the % of files used (1) — we hope to turn this into a metrics dashboard this summer, so we can see how it changes, as an eventual measure of our progress. For now, here are the latest numbers in March 21: 8.0M files used in articles (39% of all files): [17:48:00] https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AMultimedia_Quarterly_Review_-_Q3_2013-14.pdf&page=34 [18:07:32] (03CR) 10Cmcmahon: [C: 031] "I'd like to see this merge since it causes a test failure in beta labs." [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136986 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958) (owner: 10Gilles) [18:08:05] marktraceur: is this something you could +2? https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/136986/ [18:08:36] Could, yes. [18:09:13] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: [C: 032] Avoid trying to sort licenses when there are none [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136986 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958) (owner: 10Gilles) [18:09:18] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Avoid trying to sort licenses when there are none [extensions/CommonsMetadata] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136986 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/65958) (owner: 10Gilles) [18:09:50] thanks marktraceur [18:09:54] Yup [18:18:38] Hmm, some quick stats. At first glance it looks like around 5-10% of number of uploads are deleted (ie comparing number of uploads in a month, vs number of deletions in a given month). For mobile web uploads this is closer to 50-100% [18:25:51] would be nice to tag files depending on how they were uploaded and gain an easy way to cound % of deleted/unused/used in more than 1 article/used in more than 1 wiki [18:26:29] most of it should be doable with categories, but tracking deletions seems hard [18:27:24] Indeed [18:27:41] I'm using if the file ends in a date as a tracking method [18:27:45] which is pretty horrible [18:28:32] I guess a field in the upload api for source, which then got translated into log_params and a change tag would be good [18:28:42] maybe just add an ArticleDelete hook which checks the category and logs? [18:29:38] I'm a bit worried about mindless copypasting between tools if the source is something that can just be set by the user [18:29:54] Hmm. Seems horribly commons specific, but we only care about commons anyways [18:30:31] The only thing I don't like about hard coding "categories" is that generally they're user controlled. Sometimes they change, or new ones are added, and the code lags behind [18:33:41] given that most of the upload workflows are user-created, anything we use to track them will be user controlled [18:34:23] categories are not ideal but I would still prefer them to something users could control but would not actually understanb, like a source URL parameter [18:36:21] bawolff: Thanks for this helpful comparison. Is the 5-10% deletion number for desktop uploads or all uploads? Can you add these stats to your page, for the record? We have started a discussion with Wikidata about the upcoming structured data project (see link), and I added this proposed new field: Upload Tool - to identify which tool was used on what platform (e.g. 'Upload Wizard 2.0 - Desktop Web - Firefox 29.0.1’). Should we [18:36:22] consider multiple fields to separate the tool from the browser? http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/multimedia-wikidata-catchup [18:36:58] fabriceflorin: They are all uploads minus the mobile/web uploads [18:37:06] * bawolff trying to figure out how to plot a graph [18:37:49] bawolff: If you give me CSV data, I can put it in a spreadsheet and create a graph for you :) [18:38:16] fabriceflorin: very rough numbers https://dpaste.de/NUir/raw [18:38:21] for this year [18:38:31] err, I mean not rough, they come out of the db [18:38:39] So they should hopefully be accurate [18:40:01] Thanks! Give me a few minutes … Also, when you say ‘minus mobile / web uploads’, does this mean that mobile app uploads are excluded or included in the same bucket? [18:41:42] give me a moment I'll put that in better format [18:42:11] android, etc are included in the everything else bucket [18:42:37] bawolff: can you join these with the globalusage table and count the number of uploads which are used/unused? [18:43:05] tgr: yes, but only for right now. There's no historical data there [18:43:27] tgr: Currently 26% of mobile uploads are used (not counting those files that have been deleted) [18:46:59] I mean, join on log_title and see usage percentage per month? [18:48:13] I wonder if there is any change in usage after the upload, or they are used either immediately or never [18:48:44] if that's the case, maybe some sort of automated deletion process could be used [18:49:03] and then the low quality of mobile uploads would be less problematic [18:49:06] Lots of them are added to a page by a user, and then removed fairly quickly for being either vandalism or just undeleted [18:49:12] s/undeleted/irrelavent [18:50:48] maybe this should be handled in a reCaptcha way :) [18:51:01] upload an image, review the previous guy's image [18:51:27] fabriceflorin: https://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/non-mobile-upload-delete.tsv for non-web mobile [18:52:16] last row might need to be removed as it would only be for the last 3 days [18:52:38] months are not normalized to same number of days, but I doubt we care that much [18:53:02] fabriceflorin: https://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/mobile-upload-delete.tsv for the mobile web uploads and deletions [18:54:39] and there may be a couple false positives here or there, but I expect that would be on the order of 1 every 2 months or so [19:02:45] tgr: Oh hmm, I just noticed that mobile uploads do have a "mobile edit" change tag with them [19:09:18] bawolff: Thanks! I just put the numbers you gave me on this spreadsheet, and created this first graph: https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq_75_5y5sKWdDZLVlN6SXV2MXNNZGJPbVByQlBhWFE&usp=drive_web#gid=6 [19:09:50] Feel free to add other graphs, if you like … the tools are pretty intuitive. [19:10:49] One thing that’s a bit strange is that in March the mobile deletes are 101% of uploads. But I guess that would be possible, if someone is doing mass-deletions. [19:11:48] Yes. Its deletions that happen in that month, vs uploads that happen in that month. So the files being deleted are going to possibly (or actually probably) be from previous months [19:12:17] I’m going to switch gears now, and prepare for the Media Viewer launch on enwiki and dewiki in a couple hours (2pm our time). But this has been really enlightening, thanks for staring that discussion! I’m saving this thread for future reference. To be continued, I hope :) [19:12:37] Maybe there could be a more complicated query to do what percentage were deleted out of the uploads for a specific month [19:12:41] yes [19:32:14] bawolff: are you running these on tools-login.wmflabs.org? [19:32:23] yep [19:32:43] so anything oversighted will be excluded, but i doubt that will change much [19:32:54] * bawolff also doesn't have access to any other servers [19:39:56] Keegan: Things looking OK on your end for today? [19:59:52] (03CR) 10Gergő Tisza: "If isCommons() does not handle that correctly, it should be fixed there." [extensions/MultimediaViewer] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/136905 (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [20:00:59] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3CommonsMetadata: CommonsMetadata should retrieve custom Credit Line through licensetpl_attr - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/57460#c11 (10Tisza Gergő) Done in theory, can be tested after it is deployed on Commons (now-ish) and the files are purged: * http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflab... [20:22:40] (03PS23) 10MarkTraceur: Massive refactor [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) [20:24:12] (03CR) 10jenkins-bot: [V: 04-1] Massive refactor [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [20:24:20] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: Massive refactor (032 comments) [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/68835 (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/39746) (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [20:41:17] OK so [20:41:20] The way this will go is [20:41:32] I will merge the dewiki change, deploy, see how it goes [20:41:48] Then we'll merge the enwiki sampling change, the enwiki config change, and deploy both at once [20:42:14] Then we'll watch the talk pages and set out the razor wire [20:45:50] marktraceur: Are there known (temporary) effects after activation? e.g. cache-inconsistence/incompatibility for users or pages need a purge (parsercache/frontend-cache) [20:46:30] hi Birgit_WMDE [20:46:47] Hi everyone! [20:46:48] Not usually, se4598 [20:50:08] so for each logged-in users the change should be immediately visible, and for anons after the varnish-cache (or so) expires (or for them also instant?), right? [20:50:34] Pretty much yeah [20:51:11] Hello Birgit_WMDE and se4598 : Good to see you here! The German deployment should be done by about 23:10 CET, if all goes well. marktraceur is leading the charge :) [20:53:00] Hi Fabrice, I'm looking forward to it... hope everything goes well [20:53:13] Birgit_WMDE: Me too. Fingers crossed :) [20:55:00] I guess most reactions on the change we'll see tomorrow during the day. There won't be much traffic this late. [20:55:11] T minus 5 minutes. Beginning pre-flight ignition sequence. [20:55:43] moin [20:55:44] Hi Dirk :) [20:56:40] huhu Birgit_WMDE [20:58:09] Hey dirk_wmde : Thanks so much for joining us, and welcome to our humble multimedia IRC room — sorry we didn’t decorate more :) [20:58:34] * marktraceur throws confetti at the ceiling fan [20:58:38] Wooooo welcommmmme [20:59:19] a wonderful evening fabriceflorin and marktraceur :-) the room looks just gorgeous and confetti are a nice touch [20:59:25] * dirk_wmde throws some confetti as well [20:59:31] Right, T minus 30 seconds. See y'all on the other side. [20:59:32] hehe :) [21:00:57] dirk_wmde: The German deployment will start in a few minutes and should be done by about 23:10 CET, if all goes well. We will then wait 20 mins or so before starting the English Deployment, so we can monitor the Ops dashboards: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Metrics [21:01:20] Godspeed, marktraceur ! [21:01:39] * Keegan sits back and watches [21:02:07] Missed your ping, marktraceur, yes, everything looks okay on my end [21:02:18] 'kay [21:02:58] fabriceflorin: thanks for the information. I'm pretty optismis that everything will go well [21:03:54] dirk_wmde: We’re all hoping it goes well. We certainly have done all that we could to prepare, thanks to all your fine work :) [21:04:31] Jenkins is taking his sweet time [21:04:43] Friggin' lazy butlers [21:04:47] Hard to find good help these days [21:05:02] Keegan: I am preparing a Village Pump announcement for the English Wikipedia, so we can post it as soon as we release, with links to the discussion and other useful resource. I will put the link to how to disable it near the top, as you did with your mass-mailing last week. :) [21:05:22] marktraceur: the new message/translation for preference menu with the new wording and link: when comes this? is this backportet already? [21:05:31] fabriceflorin: good play [21:05:41] se4598: Should be [21:05:55] Keegan: Glad it works for you. We aim to please :) [21:06:01] :P [21:06:18] Birgit_WMDE, dirk_wmde: do we have a new announcement? [21:07:00] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3CommonsMetadata: CommonsMetadata should retrieve custom Credit Line through licensetpl_attr - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/57460#c12 (10Tisza Gergő) 5PATC>3RESO/FIX (In reply to Tisza Gergő from comment #11) > can be tested after it is deployed on Commons (now-ish) Uh, next... [21:07:13] the one from two days ago. i'm not really sure if putting it again into the Kurier could be considered spamming.. really unsure actually [21:08:31] then just a followup as addition on the post could be ok [21:08:49] I'll add it on wp:NEU [21:09:09] se4598: Cool, thanks [21:09:19] dirk_wmde: I think it would make sense to proactively announce the actual launch, with links to your discussion page and a reminder on how it can be disabled in preferences. Like this, you can give folks the info they need as soon as it’s live. Your call ... [21:09:35] se4598: Good call. [21:10:21] We're on dewiki [21:10:31] We’re live! Nicely done, marktraceur ! [21:10:39] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptseite#mediaviewer/Datei:Wappen_Wandlitz.jpg [21:10:47] If the question how to disable it arises it should be as soon as possible answered [21:13:32] okay, it's in the kurier including he information that it can be disabled :-) [21:14:12] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kurier/Edit#Media_Viewer_eingeschaltet [21:14:25] I've arbitrarily decided to do enwiki at 14:25 our time, fabriceflorin [21:14:44] marktraceur: Thanks for the heads-up! [21:14:47] *nod* [21:15:59] marktraceur: re preference option: the translation is still the old one, but we've have to override it anyway [21:16:48] Is the message also capable of wikitext or only html? [21:17:09] Currently only HTML I think, but not sure [21:19:09] seems either beta lags for dewiki or it a addition configuration setting. Otherwise I could test it right now [21:21:21] marktraceur: looking at noc InitialiseSettings-labs.php, it seems to be blocked by the beta setting wmgMediaViewerBeta I guess. Can you confirm and remove it? [21:21:56] se4598: Why are you using beta? It's live on normal dewiki now. [21:22:13] We kept dewikibeta as a beta site for testing purposes [21:22:23] I would test the message key there, b/c I have admin only there [21:22:43] Ah. [21:23:11] se4598: Can't really help you right now; we can talk about it after I do the last sync [21:23:17] anyway we (dewiki-betafolks) want it near-production to test our stuff [21:23:21] ok [21:23:35] Sure [21:25:00] Going [21:25:35] We're out! [21:26:40] w00t [21:28:58] Keegan: Let the games begin :) I just posted this announcement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Media_Viewer_just_launched_on_the_English_Wikipedia [21:29:24] Indeed. Quiddity and WhatamIdoing are on standby just in case [21:30:07] marktraceur: Thanks so much for getting the ‘Enable Media Viewer’ new preference wording out for this release ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering [21:30:58] Hi gi11es : We’re live on both dewiki and enwiki ! thanks for all you great work to make that possible. [21:31:18] Awesome [21:31:51] gi11es: Can you help us interpret the Ops metrics ? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Metrics [21:32:08] great. even before anybody is complaining, the advice on how to disable it is already given on the Kurier discussion. that's neat. [21:32:28] I'm watching the graphs, we're looking fine so far [21:32:44] Some bumps, probably unrelated to the launch [21:33:15] Keegan, quiddity and Sherry: Thanks for keeping an eye out for any issues on enwiki. It would be great if we could direct responses to this special discussion page, if at all possible : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Media_Viewer [21:33:55] ...WhatamIdoing isn't in here, but she knows :) We discussed what to look for and where and all that earlier today [21:34:23] Keegan: Splendid. Thanks for being so well prepared :) [21:34:49] Yessir [21:35:26] -tech asked about it [21:35:56] Resolved. [21:36:05] I'll pop in there just in case [21:37:30] as marktraceur said, nothing special on the ops metrica that I can see [21:37:40] *metrics [21:37:56] Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on 'em [21:38:04] gi11es-phone: You can go to sleep :P [21:38:26] gi11es and marktraceur : Thanks for this update, much appreciated. Glad we’re looking good on the ops metrics front. [21:43:18] marktraceur: now time for dewiki-beta? I think when "wmgMediaViewerBeta" is set to true it will appear as beta-feature and not normal regardless of "wmgUseMultimediaViewer" [21:43:39] That's correct se4598 [21:43:50] I'm trying to make sure we don't break things [21:44:39] you can't break beta, it's already and per definition broken ;) [21:45:33] No, but I very much can and have (in the past) break prod [21:46:33] memories of AFT in my head, fabriceflorin^ :-) [21:47:03] se4598: /me knocks on wood [21:47:11] se4598: hehe. yes, that seems like so long ago. we’ve learned a lot together :) [21:47:36] I too am knocking on wood. [21:49:08] se4598: Should be set in a few minutes [21:50:20] The prefs checkbox still says "Enable new media viewing experience" at mediawikiwiki and commons (versus "Enable Media Viewer"). Known problem? [21:50:34] Uhhhh [21:50:40] That's werd. [21:51:19] Not urgent, but worth getting them to match eventually. [21:51:21] probably wasn't backmerged to that branch [21:51:30] it workes on commona earlier today when anomie pushed the backport [21:51:34] Shouldn't commons...yeah [21:51:40] We can backport...again? [21:51:47] *worked [21:51:51] Is it forward-port now that it's on an older branch too? [21:51:55] or just wait it out [21:52:07] But then it'll become broken again on Thursday [21:52:13] middle-port [21:52:18] (the new i18n string) [21:54:28] yeah, no backmerge to 1.24wmf7 [21:54:48] gi11es-phone: Commons was still on 1.24wmf6 half a day ago [21:54:59] Should I backbackport? [21:55:26] We still have an hour [21:55:40] Yeah, I just saw that when I went to change the wording on the Commons page about disabling it and saw Jean-Fred using the {{int:MediaWiki:Multimediaviewer-optin-pref}} to pull it [21:55:50] Heh [21:56:29] which is a good idea in any case, I suppose [21:56:37] someone might change it locally [21:56:48] Yup yup [21:57:39] fabriceflorin: Nobody else seems interested; should I backport the i18n change to wmf7? [21:58:03] 'cause right now commons and mediawiki.org are out of sync and wikipedias will be in two days [21:58:52] marktraceur: Thanks for doing this! [21:59:42] (03PS1) 10MarkTraceur: Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 [22:01:20] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: [C: 032] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:01:30] (03CR) 10jenkins-bot: [V: 04-1] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:06:34] (03PS2) 10Gergő Tisza: Move funnel logging into its own component [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/134283 [22:06:54] se4598: Looks like debeta has it; not sure how to test though [22:07:12] have tested it already [22:07:33] also updated the msg to use wikitext. It works: http://de.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Spezial:Einstellungen#mw-prefsection-rendering [22:08:12] (03CR) 10jenkins-bot: [V: 04-1] Move funnel logging into its own component [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/134283 (owner: 10Gergő Tisza) [22:10:55] tgr: Is the qunit failure above a jquery upgrade thing? [22:11:10] Because if so what the hell, I thought we fixed that [22:11:35] Oh, wait, that's the hashchange one [22:11:38] Craaaaap. [22:15:20] (03PS2) 10MarkTraceur: Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 [22:15:25] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:15:30] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: [C: 032] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:15:54] marktraceur: IMO just force-merge it [22:16:07] Unless it's going to cause client-side fatals in prod [22:16:08] that won't break anything, backporting fixes might [22:16:37] OK [22:16:42] (03CR) 10jenkins-bot: [V: 04-1] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:17:00] (03CR) 10MarkTraceur: [V: 032] Change preference name for enabling MediaViewer [extensions/MultimediaViewer] (wmf/1.24wmf7) - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/137207 (owner: 10MarkTraceur) [22:17:04] Leeroy [22:17:22] Still got some submodules updating. [22:22:48] (03PS3) 10Gergő Tisza: Move funnel logging into its own component [extensions/UploadWizard] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/134283 [22:34:49] Well, so far no one has agreed with this: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Multimedia/About_Media_Viewer#Media_Viewer_sucks [22:35:00] Not bad for the first 1 1/2 hours :D [22:35:06] Bahaha [22:35:18] d'aww fabrice [22:36:18] Keegan: Lots of IPs commenting [22:37:39] I'm half tempted to sign under "Media Viewer Sucks" and comment with "I wrote this thing, I know exactly how terrible it is." [22:37:48] * Keegan laugh [22:37:54] I was just suggesting you go sign :) [22:38:16] marktraceur: lots of the IPs that have been complaining came over from the Commons release [22:38:22] Ah. [22:38:41] We might need to revisit the Commons thing next week or something as a team when I'm in town. I've mentioned it to fabriceflorin [22:38:53] Yeah [22:39:14] It seems like we're going a bit too heavy-handed with Commons; they probably have one of the best arguments for not using it [22:39:40] I agree [22:39:42] Like, I've seen one person say "Agh I want the enwiki description page, not the commons one" but other than that it seems like that's an uncontroversial feature [22:39:51] Whereas Commons....doesn't get that benefit [22:40:07] Right. Commons is for archiving, not displaying, for the most part [22:40:33] Or, if you want to display on Commons as User:Evan-Amos does, it's highly customized for file information as well as display [22:41:19] Which seems backwards, but it looks like that's just the reality [22:41:22] readers are regularly sent to Commons categories/galleries [22:41:41] and the raw viewing experience is pretty horrible [22:41:44] OK preference rename is now middleported [22:41:54] "middleported" heh [22:42:10] tgr: sure. There's lots of things that need help on Commons :) [22:42:48] Keegan: Dibs on the attribution thing [22:42:52] Because they did it wrong. [22:43:09] Fabrice and everyone: I'm leaving. We'll give you an update on the latest feedback at dewiki via mail soon! [22:43:43] Specifically, though, readers are regularly being sent over because of a curation of works, like GLAM stuff etc, and Media Viewer isn't *quite* helping in that regard on Commons. [22:43:48] But we'll talk about it next week :) [22:43:53] Okay [22:44:05] Bye Birgit_WMDE, thank you! [22:44:42] welcome [22:46:15] marktraceur: That's a pretty cool image as an example, though [22:46:24] It is! [22:47:10] * marktraceur so glad he hacked in the metadata API call gadget [22:47:35] And what did that do? [22:48:02] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer: Remove uses of jQuery.browser - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66098 (10Matthew Flaschen) 3NEW p:3Unprio s:3normal a:3None See parent bug. jQuery.browser will be removed, and in the meantime it logs deprecation warnings. [22:48:13] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer: Remove uses of jQuery.browser - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66098 (10Matthew Flaschen) [22:49:04] It means I can see the metadata API request for any image I load in the media viewer [22:49:07] Without a debugger [22:49:15] ahhhhh [22:51:58] Wait, do we already support the licensetpl_attr thing? [22:52:41] Doesn't appear to be the case. [22:53:32] marktraceur: Jean-Fred requested it for CommonsMetadata so I added it [22:53:37] Cool [22:53:45] there is no support whatsoever in MediaViewer [22:53:45] Sorry, I may have duped the bug [22:56:17] https://graphite.wikimedia.org/render/?width=586&height=308&_salt=1397062971.274&from=-7days&target=MediaWiki.API.globalusage.tp50 is starting to look a mite disconcerting. [22:56:21] Only a little [22:57:13] * Keegan bookmarks [22:57:29] it looks weird, with two big spikes but very low load otherwise [22:57:38] wait [22:57:51] tp50 is response time at the 50th percentile, right? [22:58:29] Probably [22:58:35] the usage increase is actually pretty small: https://graphite.wikimedia.org/render/?width=586&height=308&_salt=1397062971.274&from=-1days&target=MediaWiki.API.globalusage.count [22:58:56] 'kay, that's fine then [22:59:34] anyway, I wouldn't care [22:59:44] imageinfo is used about 50 times more [22:59:57] if there are any problems, they will probably occur there first [23:00:05] That's the spirit [23:02:49] Keegan: about 1 in 300 users look at the metadata panel in MediaViewer; the number of people looking at metadata templates on Commons file pages is probably comparable [23:03:15] * Keegan nods [23:03:18] a lot of Commons folks are very deluded about how much users care about stuff like which institution gave the image [23:03:43] Because obviously MY EGO IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GOOD UX [23:03:48] Well, part of the thing is that they pitch the institution with EVERYONE WILL KNOW IT'S FROM YOU [23:04:35] Diff'rnt strokes [23:05:15] 3MediaWiki extensions / 3MultimediaViewer: MultimediaViewer: Remove uses of jQuery.browser - 10https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/66098#c1 (10se4598) after bug 65371 got fixed, the remaining call I grepped in the codebase of MMV was in jquery.hashchange.js [23:05:21] Now I think it's fair to say it's dramatic to assert that Media Viewer will cripple GLAM work :) [23:06:14] we should show the institution on the metadata panel, I'm not arguing against that, but I think that realistically MediaViewer does not make much difference in user awareness of image provenance [23:06:29] * Keegan agrees [23:12:12] So, everything's quiet on de. I'm off as well. Good night! [23:16:22] marktraceur Keegan : Sorry I had to join an annual planning meeting with other PMs. Any word on the response on enwiki or dewiki at this time? The talk pages seem pretty quiet so far. :) [23:17:02] fabriceflorin: Shhhhh don't speak too loudly :) [23:17:08] Hey se4598 : Are you still up? Have you heard anything important from German users yet about the Media Viewer rollout? [23:17:49] Keegan: Hehe. Yeah, let the crickets sing … [23:18:13] no, not more than the usual known complains [23:21:04] fabriceflorin: having 15,000 accounts opted in already probably isn't hurting [23:21:36] se4598: Thanks, glad that things seem to be quiet on your front as well. We should have lots of survey feedback in the morning, but I wanted to check that there are no riots in your streets :) Are people discussing this in any particular page we should be monitoring? I am not seeing any traction on this page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfe_Diskussion:Medienbetrachter [23:22:32] Keegan: Yes, I am glad we got a chance to test this thoroughly as a Beta Feature. Building that program was a good investment of our time, even if it wasn’t directly related to Multimedia :) [23:23:15] fabriceflorin: right now it's happening on https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#.E2.80.9EBildbetrachter.E2.80.9C [23:23:17] fabriceflorin: Sure, as well as actively owning and promoting it [23:26:10] fabriceflorin, Keegan: as an idea for a new metric, I would be interested in the count of users, who have it already disabled in their pref on the deployed wikis [23:26:59] Thanks, se4598 — It’s great to see this feedback from German users. Thanks for participating so actively and answering people’s questions :) [23:26:59] Keegan: Yes, I believe that proactively engaging our community as partners is the right approach for these new features. [23:27:06] Oh yes, that'd be very interesting as well [23:28:56] se4598: Thanks for suggesting this. We had a ticket for this, but it was buried down the to-do list. I just increased its priority, and will encourage the team to take this on sooner than later, because it is an important metric for measuring our success with this product. #558 Track Media Viewer Opt-outs: https://wikimedia.mingle.thoughtworks.com/projects/multimedia/cards/558 [23:32:22] fabriceflorin: to that mingle card: you may also want to add the case "active users" vs. opt-out [23:33:58] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Media_Viewer#No_big_deal [23:34:41] se4598: Good idea. I am editing that card right now to make it as simple as possible, so we can get a basic version implemented right away with the 4 points per week we have allocated to Media Viewer. But I will also add more recommendations we can implement later, as time allows. [23:35:32] also, marktraceur, HA [23:35:57] Keegan: Right? I couldn't resist [23:38:23] fabriceflorin: with active users I mean as active as by the criteria of mediawiki (editing) (and not by using MMV). The count is currently 20,658 active users but 1,874,817 users total for dewiki. [23:40:27] Keegan: I like Jim Henderson’s comment. He’s got the right attitude. It’s not a big deal, just a minor inconvenience for power users that prefer metadata over nice UI. [23:42:22] * Keegan nod [23:53:16] se4598: I just split the Opt-out Metrics card into two parts, so we can get the first part done right away, then try to fit in the second part soon after. I added your recommendation of comparing it to ‘active’ users in the second part: #675 - Track Media Viewer Opt-outs - Dashboards https://wikimedia.mingle.thoughtworks.com/projects/multimedia/cards/675 [23:57:18] Keegan: We should start investigating if Enwiki community would prefer that we disable Media Viewer for Fair Use images, or leave things alone. But before we do, we need to check if it’s even possible: is there a machine-readable flag that would indicate if an image is ‘Fair use’? There’s a discussion on MediaWiki.org about that, and I posed that question there, but didn’t get an answer. Maybe tgr or marktraceur would know? [23:57:19] Or bawolff? [23:57:45] OK, folks, I’m heading home, will be online this evening for more excitement. Tada! [23:57:49] fabriceflorin: or ask legal first [23:58:05] Sounds like a plan, but the technical limitations are going to play a part here [23:58:07] If we're not breaking FU then it doesn't matter [23:58:38] I'm off. gn8 @all [23:58:47] Bye! [23:58:54] Goodnight se4598 Thanks for everything! [23:59:32] Keegan: Yeah, it’s not a show-stopper, but we should pay attention to it. But before asking legal, I want to know if it’s at all possible to do this with a machine-readable flag. [23:59:42] kk [23:59:58] Will have to take my answer via email, though, cause I’m closing down my laptop now.