[07:39:43] Cripes, Susan. Why are you stirring DaSch up about Flow? You know I'm not going to engage with him. [07:40:26] Perhaps someone else will. [07:40:57] the answer is "yes, we are talking to lots of people" [07:41:04] we're just not coming up with the answers he wants to hear. [07:41:17] which are "we're going to make it perfectly compatible with liquid threads" [07:41:31] My feeling has been that LQT was dead. [07:41:35] was/is [07:41:40] And I think others share that feeling. [07:41:45] Whether it'll be revived... dunno. [07:42:26] it will not. unless some volunteers want to do it. [07:42:43] but that's not what DaSch wants to hear. he wants to hear that the Foundation has reversed its stance. [07:43:07] You know, I asked James F. about this a few months ago. [07:43:14] And I thought he said that LQT was not dead. [07:43:20] But maybe he was wrong or maybe that's changed. [07:43:24] Or maybe I'm mis-remembering. [07:44:12] James was (afaik) tasked with being product manager for overseeing any major bug fixes that needed to happen (e.g., security fixes) [07:44:21] Ahh. [07:44:32] it is also (afaik) still undetermined who will be the product owner for Flow. [07:44:49] what *is* determined is that no matter who that person is, I am spearheading the entire thing. [07:45:03] which reminds me. [07:45:10] something specific to you, Susan. [07:45:15] Part of the reason people are wary of the Wikimedia Foundation (and Flow) is their experience with LQT. [07:45:31] right. which is why we are doing things different. [07:45:33] LQT left a very bad taste in a lot of mouths. [07:45:51] Sure, but future iterations don't necessarily heal old wounds. :-) [07:45:56] next week (ish) there will be a portal section opened up on enwiki (and probably meta) [07:46:23] specifically to talk with users (of all experience levels and opinions) about this. [07:46:47] Can't see why it'd be on a specific Wikipedia. [07:47:00] i'm going to be publishing a lot of research we've already done (pete forsyth jumped the gun and posted his quora answer to the flow talk page, which is fine; I was planning to do an analysis of all answers) [07:47:28] me neither, to be honest, and it bothers the fuck out of me that we have to pick one to work on, but the truth is that people don't like leaving their home wikis. [07:47:46] and it's a pain in my ass to have the same conversation in multiple places but so it goes. [07:47:56] If only there some kind of meta-wiki. [07:48:05] Quora's user wall thing is pretty awful. [07:48:30] we're on the same page here with that, the meta wiki thing, but we've tried having discussions on there (or mw.org) and it just doesn't fucking work. [07:48:38] Not that Flow really needs that as a bullet, but never including that feature is certainly a good goal. [07:48:59] Well, I imagine you'll engender further discontent by having discussions on en.wiki. [07:49:09] From people like DaSch, heh. [07:49:10] i have many problems with Quora's interface; we aren't going there. they were useful to me in that specific question. mostly their discussion system serves as a lesson as to what NOT to do. [07:49:27] Yes, that last sentence was mostly my point. :-) [07:49:30] I plan to have the discussions wherever and whenever people want them. [07:49:52] (i told them that. in person. the bulk of their design team.) [07:50:39] they took me to lunch a couple months back. a typical "first date" when you try to poach someone. I wanted to turn the tails; poach one of them. they asked what sucked; i said their discussions. [07:51:05] Is there anything else to Quora besides discussions? [07:51:15] blogs now, i suppose. [07:51:27] they have an interesting community dynamic. [07:51:41] and a social currency which isn't a real currency. that taught me something. [07:51:48] (another what not to do) [07:52:27] you earn credits for people upvoting your answers. this is good - it's a solid currency, right? only you can't ever know how many credits someone else has. [07:52:27] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User_talk:Sj#Flow [07:52:35] I'm worried about sentiments like the one expressed there. [07:52:39] so it's not worth shit in public. [07:52:50] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/currency#Noun <- sense #3 [07:52:51] Currency without value? [07:53:04] Heh. [07:53:11] Sense 3 is one of my favorite sense. [07:53:26] ugh, that's an awful comment. [07:53:28] Data currency comes up in the context of Wikimedia wiki XML dumps. [07:53:39] * apergos peeks in [07:53:49] Nemo seems to have a disconnect about things. He's thinking that we're not looking to the past at all. [07:53:50] (no I don't have xml dumps as a stalk word :-P) [07:54:04] bad puns, on the other hand. [07:54:05] I'm not sure if it's awful. There's a feeling that Flow isn't learning from LQT. [07:54:13] This isn't true. I think he may have a different understanding of some basic terminologies than others. [07:54:31] That feeling may be encouraged by the fact that Flow is so adamantly trying to distance itself from LQT. [07:54:35] well. first, we need to understand that "Flow" is not a "discussion system" [07:54:44] It's not? [07:54:46] it's absolutely not. [07:54:47] no. [07:54:52] Flow is a *feed* [07:55:01] It has a "discussion module" [07:55:07] it will also have a "watchlist module" [07:55:13] and a "wikiproject module" [07:55:17] and a zillion other modules. [07:55:41] Flow is the television set; the producers of content are the channels. [07:55:51] > An intuitive user-to-user discussion system will promote editor engagement and retention by eliminating several of the greater hurdles that new (and old) users face. [07:56:05] That's the single stated hypothesis currently, BTW. [07:56:11] Old data. [07:56:17] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Flow#Hypotheses [07:56:24] Looks like current content to me. ;-) [07:56:30] should be updated. my fault. [07:56:34] (also, discussions are a feed.) [07:56:36] let's spend thirty minutes arguing about that. [07:56:40] No worries, of course. [07:56:50] But if you're wondering where the misconceptions are coming from... [07:56:53] discussions are *part* of a feed. [07:57:19] No, they are a feed. They may not be this feed,�but all discussions are sequential. [07:57:19] Let's spend thirty minutes discussing how "Wikimedia dumps" always makes me think of scat. [07:57:22] yeah; the docs are bad. i know this; it's also not entirely my fault because there's lots of people talking and few of them know, or think to know, if you take my meaning. [07:57:54] Amgine: that is actually (that thought, sequential conversations) one of the most hard nuggets to crack with this. [07:58:01] I'm totally not shitting you, either. [07:58:09] and its one that we're going to have to play around and experiment with. [07:58:11] I'm not sure one cracks nuggets, heh. [07:58:13] Nuts, perhaps. [07:58:15] Quite aware of it; I've done a couple. [07:58:41] The concept of "thread depth" is one of the most complex issues we have, actually. [07:58:44] Clearly all we need to do is embed phpBB into MediaWiki. [07:58:47] Problem resolved. [07:59:03] Susan: been done; phpBB is designed to allow that. [07:59:05] discussions are sequential, but also threaded, and threads have their own sequences. [07:59:13] phpbb is entirely sequential. [07:59:17] Amgine: I was kidding. [07:59:24] I was not. [07:59:44] :-( [07:59:53] however, Jorm's corollary to Godwin's Law is this: "As the depth of a thread grows larger, the likelyhood of someone saying 'fuck you' approaches 1." [08:00:32] As jorm has suggested: it's a tough problem. Specialty software exists which addresses the problem. [08:00:36] I think that's truer of article feedback than Wikipedia discussions. [08:01:03] Yes, that corollary is most obvious in Article Talk over User Talk. [08:02:44] (Also, FYI: I personally walked SJ through Flow for like, 2 hours a week or two ago. And then I also brought Jimmy through it. And both of them had expressed the same worries Nemo did, and were satisified.) [08:03:22] you might have to write a set of slides that does that same thing for anyone else (if you don't have two hours per user t spend) [08:03:29] s/anyone/everyone/ [08:03:32] ^^^^^ [08:03:35] :-) [08:03:46] [08:03:47] Nemo would be happy to watch a two-hour .ogv. [08:04:12] no [08:04:24] speak of the devil and he shall appear. [08:04:27] And right now I'm trying to set up filters to ignore any future discussion on flow [08:04:28] heh [08:04:33] jorm: it's called highlighting [08:04:52] sorry. didn't mean to grumpify you. [08:04:52] Or stalking! [08:04:56] Also, Susan, I think that #Hypotheses is self-failing. [08:05:14] Amgine: Because it's singular, while the title is plural? I agree. [08:05:39] No, "eliminating several of the greater hurdles that new (and old) users face." [08:05:44] yeah. that doc is a mess, because i keep trying to splinter it. [08:05:59] * Nemo_bis cries https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24288#c2 [08:06:11] adding an interface never eliminates hurdles. [08:06:12] jorm: That doc is _the doc_ on Flow, isn't it? [08:06:23] yes and no. [08:06:37] Well, it certainly seems that way, I think. [08:06:43] yes, it's the public doc; no in that i have some shit that's half done but not ready for publication. [08:06:57] because it's a bunch of fragmented thoughts and bullet points without context. [08:07:07] Right. But my point was more "if it's _the_ Flow doc, it probably shouldn't be wrong or outdated." [08:07:11] As much as possible. [08:07:36] It feels very "shoot yourself in the foot"-y to have a wrong doc. [08:07:44] Or an outdated doc. [08:08:01] It's an old developer maxim that having no documentation is better than having wrong documentation. [08:08:06] :-) [08:08:37] right. so, this appears to have started turning into a "beat up on brandon" session. [08:08:40] There's also a developer model where you write the docs, then write the tests which match the docs, then write the code which passes the tests. [08:08:53] jorm: That wasn't the intention. [08:09:08] [08:09:09] jorm: OTOH, I'm not sure how to help. It seems like outside edits are causing more problems than they're solving for you. [08:09:17] Amgine: yummmmmmmm [08:09:21] [08:09:24] so, it pains me that there are bugs in bugzilla about liquid threads, and that i said we'd deal with them, and then i was told that the project was canceled, and there wasn't jack shit i can do about it. [08:09:50] Amgine: do you also like fritto di paranza? :) [08:10:05] No, but if it's good food I likely will. [08:10:08] jorm: Well, you could unassign the bugs or add comments to them updating their status. [08:10:24] what do i say? "This will never be fixed." [08:10:37] and then you can go in and undo that, and say "maybe some developer will do so" [08:10:47] Right. [08:10:47] some volunteer schmuck who gets into the LQT code. [08:11:09] which will never get deployed to any wmf wiki. [08:11:13] So instead, you can just update your comment to say "This is no longer accurate. The Wikimedia Foundation has shifted its priorities... blah blah." [08:11:29] Well, LQT is already deployed to WMF wikis. [08:11:36] So that's gonna have to be addressed one way or another. [08:11:42] I wonder if there's a bug about that. [08:11:43] Jorm: I know this may sound surprising, but there are far more non-WMF instances of WMF than WMF instances. [08:11:53] instances of MW * [08:11:56] I think. [08:12:01] Otherwise, the sentence is a little trippy. [08:12:03] Yes.\ [08:12:17] Also, iirc, the CIA's exchange site is using LQT. [08:12:34] exchange --> Microsoft Exchange? [08:12:45] No, intelligence exchange. [08:12:53] Commons for intelligence data. [08:12:53] Ah. [08:12:58] intellipedia [08:13:06] Scary thought. [08:13:06] ryan lane worked on it. [08:13:17] no, seriously, that's its name. "Intellipedia" [08:13:21] yep [08:13:24] I know. Sadly. [08:13:26] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24288#c3 is great. [08:13:29] Thank you. [08:13:31] I attended their presentation. [08:14:26] Nemo_bis: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/turislucca/5581734151/ <- yummish [08:14:51] eeww I shouldn't have clicked through [08:15:14] Sooorrry. [08:16:33] alright. i'm sleeping now. [08:16:50] Amgine: not the best kind [08:17:06] good night [08:17:23] nn Jorm, sleep well. [08:17:34] Nemo_bis: snob, tell me more. [08:18:28] Amgine: the best is with the smallest kinds of fish, those who can't be sold anywhere; you can find it only on the coast in restaurants which buy directing from the fishermen :) [08:18:46] Ah, Portugal... [08:18:49] best I tried was in Piombino :) [08:18:55] hm? [08:19:14] I doubt atlantic fish suits it [08:20:45] Nemo_bis: I didn't CC you on this bug, as I don't know whether you're trying to ignore LQT bugs in addition to discussions about Flow: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45088 [08:20:50] But you may find it interesting. [08:20:51] [08:24:18] Susan: troll [08:24:38] Yes, but xe uses fresh bait. [08:24:51] It's only trolling if the balls touch _and_ you're both hard. [08:25:24] Gay. [08:25:42] (or should that be (tm)?) [08:25:49] Nemo_bis: Scorned Swedish Wikisorcers seem dangerous. [08:25:58] Wikisorcerers [08:26:02] or [08:26:09] I think that's clever enough to post on the bug. [08:34:57] Clearly. [08:38:44] * jorm sighs. I really wish that people wouldn't try to demoralize me when I'm trying to help. [08:40:46] Remember, it's likely they are trying to help, too! [08:41:27] I think there is a lot of not stepping into the other person's shoes going on [08:41:51] gnite all! [08:41:55] night [08:47:20] folks in the comminuty that are not wmf staffers often see staffers as a separate group with different interests, but at the same time as service providers who should be doing the community's bidding [08:47:51] (I know I did before being hired, and actually I still do to a great extent) [08:48:21] this can lead to the sort of interactions you might have if you were calling up a vendor for tech support [08:48:56] you really don't think of the person on the other end of the line as a person, most of the time, but as an obstacle or not an obstacle [08:52:05] rats migraine too intense to work [08:52:08] afk for a while [08:55:07] two days ago I called the customer care of my ISP and I ended up helping the person responding (probably rather new to the job) and getting thanked [08:55:55] apergos: I think the Wikimedia Foundation exists to serve the Wikimedia community. [08:57:42] yes it does, but that is different than having no volition or direction of its own [08:57:49] it's not just 'taking orders from the community' [08:58:07] it is trying to meet the needs of the community and further the mission [08:59:14] Sure. :-) [08:59:21] I think there's mutual agreement on that. [08:59:26] Largely. [09:00:20] my point was that there is a tendency to see folks the way we vew paid tech support at some corporation, rather than partners in this mess [09:00:30] and that doesn't lead to good dialogue [09:00:52] my impression is that it's much bettter than it used to be [09:01:06] but there are still failures [09:05:27] rats!! [09:07:42] I think that the kind of wikimedians you refer to just go on some forum to scream "X should be fired", surely they don't talk with X [09:08:11] there are degrees [09:09:54] maybe [09:10:53] no degrees? all black and white? :-P [09:24:04] Also, I believe a better example would be state services (including church): "We the taxpayers blabla". Might be the effect of calling Wikipedia a temple and WMF its alms box. [09:32:30] oh maybe [09:32:39] I just though of tech support cause it's, well, tech [09:52:51] hey, Nemo_bis [09:53:12] do you sometime take care of bugs related to central auth? [10:28:37] matanya: define "take care" :) [10:29:04] have you met a bug related to OS conflict in Central auth? [10:31:32] OS conflict? [10:34:46] yes, when two stewards try to oversight an account at the same time [10:36:42] when you mean oversight you mean hideandlock right? [10:37:03] its possible there is a race condition [10:37:19] what happens if two do it at the same time? [10:41:31] one hides and one un-hides [10:41:50] er whaaa. [10:42:10] * duh peeks at the code [10:44:50] can you report it on bugzilla btw? [10:45:08] I wanted to ask if it already reported [10:45:32] I didn't find, but I thought Nemo saw it in the past [10:46:09] I saw it happening a few times, but didn't pay enough attention [10:52:30] matanya: I don't remember such a bug, maybe ask in #wikimedia-stewards? [10:52:40] or just file it and someone will mark as duplicate :) [10:53:14] add also to the stewards tracking bug, as it's rather annoying [10:53:41] probably the effect is negligible, unless StewardBot is quiet/dead [10:57:27] correct [10:57:32] i will thanks [15:30:51] New patchset: Reedy; "Apparently description is now optional.." [mediawiki/tools/code-utils] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49486 [15:31:19] New review: Reedy; "Patch Set 1: Verified+2 Code-Review+2" [mediawiki/tools/code-utils] (master); V: 2 C: 2; - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49486 [15:31:19] Change merged: Reedy; [mediawiki/tools/code-utils] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49486 [15:39:21] New patchset: Reedy; "Filter "production tip"" [mediawiki/tools/release] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49487 [15:39:36] New review: Reedy; "Patch Set 1: Verified+2 Code-Review+2" [mediawiki/tools/release] (master); V: 2 C: 2; - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49487 [15:39:37] Change merged: Reedy; [mediawiki/tools/release] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/49487 [16:19:10] Reedy: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/49489/ if you'd like to approve this one today [16:19:16] or anytime before deployment [16:19:37] * aude just does not want to forget it :D [22:11:05] i need help for lanuage translater [22:14:36] i want to install universal language selector to top left sidebar [22:16:02] vp__: May want to ask that in #MediaWiki ? [22:16:45] thanks amgime