[11:36:57] @replag [16:47:17] guillom: I figure I'll just read your chapter as https://github.com/lydiapintscher/Open-Advice/blob/master/usability/GuillaumePaumier.tex :-) (doesn't everyone prefer to read raw TeX?) [16:47:36] (I don't.) [16:47:55] *sumanah laughs at "for some cosmological reason" [16:48:51] :) [17:01:30] sumanah, alright, so: 1.19 communications plan? [17:02:03] (quick note: I'd like to spend 30 min max on this, since I need to have dinner before my 3 back-to-back evening meetings) [17:02:07] hi guillom! [17:02:09] ok. [17:02:16] guillom: (oh man, my sympathies) [17:02:19] np [17:02:40] guillom: so, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.19/Roadmap [17:02:53] guillom: I have reached out to wikitech-l and wikitech-ambassadors and to Maggie Dennis [17:03:33] guillom: the scheduling question is way less important since we will have a nearly 0 chance of bringing any sites down :) [17:04:48] guillom: but "please test early, what if your gadgets break?" is a message we need to send nowish, this week, so authors have time to fix things [17:06:05] guillom: so, I've now updated https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.19/Roadmap#Communications [17:06:28] I figure the 4 things that still need to happen are the top 4 items on that list [17:06:50] alright [17:07:17] guillom: if you can do 1, 2, and 4 this week, I can do #3 [17:07:37] The IRC stuff? [17:07:42] yeah [17:08:05] also, guillom, I have neglected to incorporate any of your suggestions from https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Development_process_improvement/Communications_recommendations#Tech_announcements so maybe you could add a few and carry them out as you see appropriate? [17:08:05] I can do it, I always idles there. And I'm also on the translators list, so don't worry about it. [17:08:13] I should be able to do all of it tomorrow. [17:08:18] guillom: oh, ok! then I can leave that to you as well? neat [17:08:35] also, s/idles/idle. [17:08:39] (I thought I might just want to give you asynchronous stuff like email in case that helped you with scheduling) [17:09:51] ok, guillom! Then I am handing it over to you, and have just made an edit to say that in the communications plan :-) [17:10:07] btw, you think this is generally a good idea, right? I think you've said so but I like hearing it :D [17:10:08] Sounds good [17:10:18] Yes, more preparation is better. [17:10:24] :) [17:10:47] And I'm glad people have involved us earlier than for previous releases [17:11:29] (when it was often "oh, by the way, we're deploying X in two days, can you give a heads-up to half a quarter of a million people in 180 languages today?) [17:11:36] -half [17:11:51] sumanah, is there anything else you wanted to tell me? [17:12:38] guillom: I am about to introduce you to Saibo [17:12:53] guillom: do you know Saibo? [17:12:54] I sort of know him from Commons. [17:12:56] *sumanah is writing email [17:12:57] ok [17:14:16] Alright, I'm going to have dinner now, then. [17:14:23] guillom: the wrinkle is evidently that gadgets authors are hard to find, hard to communicate with (geez, we don't even have a central directory of "all gadgets used on WMF sites" [17:14:28] ) [17:14:36] guillom: ok, enjoy dinner! [17:14:44] feel free to send more by e-mail [17:16:13] hi Saibo [17:16:31] Saibo: I was just talking with guillom because he is taking over https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.19/Roadmap#Communications :-) [17:17:00] Saibo: I also said "we don't even have a central directory of "all gadgets used on WMF sites"" but maybe that is not true? you might know better than I. [17:17:02] hi sumanah, did send your email to the wrong address? G's address is missing [17:17:36] no, I am not aware of such a directory. I think there is none [17:17:51] Saibo: I just sent 2 emails, "Fwd: Commons gadgets" and "Re: Commons gadgets", that included both you & guillom on either the To or CC lines [17:18:21] Saibo: hmm, what was the subject line of the email you're seeing that is missing guillom's address? [17:18:26] ... worse, some gadgets are copies from gadgets form other projects (instead of a direct link) [17:18:37] it was: "Re: Commons gadgets" [17:18:44] *checking in spam folder* [17:18:53] Saibo: argh, yeah :( here's hoping that when RL2 comes along and there's a gadget repo and interwiki gadget transclusion, life can get better [17:19:08] not in there [17:19:17] Saibo: that was the one that started "Guillaume, I want to introduce you to Saibo."? yeah, Guillaume's email was on the To line as well! weird [17:19:43] sumanah: oops, sorry - it is [17:19:56] gnah.. stupid hiding by thunderbird [17:20:03] Saibo: oh, ok. Then you can disregard the email I just sent you :) [17:20:11] (it was like Fwd: Fwd:...) [17:20:19] "let me know if you get this [17:20:20] " [17:20:37] ok, guillom I think you should go have dinner unless you want to talk to Saibo right now :D [17:20:59] I am here later, too :D [17:21:14] enjoy your meal, guillom [17:21:15] Saibo: not sure whether we have ever talked before! I'm Sumana Harihareswara, volunteer development coordinator for the Wikimedia Foundation. I was trying to coordinate communication about the 1.19 rollout and then realized Guillaume would be better at it :D [17:22:11] christophermcmah: Saibo here has been helping test gadgets, especially the ones that are somewhat unique to Wikimedia Commons, to ensure that our changes in ResourceLoader etc. either don't break things, or if they do, either RL or the gadgets get fixed :0 [17:22:13] :) I mean [17:22:20] Saibo: christophermcmah is the new QA lead at WMF [17:22:29] sumanah: I don't know if we "met" before. By the way: is there somewhere a non-logged channel? ;) [17:22:33] I don't like that [17:22:47] (the public logging) [17:23:03] Saibo: you don't like talking in a logged channel? hmm, I'm sure there are non-publicly logged ones, let me check [17:23:10] Saibo: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels [17:23:12] hi Saibo, if you need extra attention or review for anything do let me know [17:23:25] so many here :D [17:23:37] thanks! *adding to contacts* [17:23:58] Saibo: I think #wikimedia-comcom is not publicly logged but I am not sure? [17:24:07] but its topic doesn't mention any log [17:24:15] Saibo, also my nick is usually 'chrismcmahon' but I made a mistake this morning and /nick isn't taking :) [17:25:10] sumanah: well, doesn't matter now - queries are not publically logged, too ;) or just fresh created channels :D [17:25:38] *christophermcmah fixes my nick [17:35:22] sumanah: /j #wikimedia-dev-nolog that would be an option ;) [17:35:54] Saibo: I personally prefer the benefits of public logging [17:36:00] Saibo: this is open source [17:36:03] then we cannot talk ;) [17:36:04] :P [17:36:06] Saibo: we should talk about things in public [17:36:14] I talk in public - on wiki [17:36:24] Saibo: if there are specific things you want to say that you're afraid to say in public, talk in /query to me [17:36:36] in chat you write too fast something which shouldn't be public - and then there is no chance to erase it [17:37:10] Saibo: it nearly never happens, in my experience, that someone takes that out of context and is taken seriously, especially if you say "wait, I misspoke" on the very next line [17:37:35] in any case, this is why we have email lists and wikis [17:37:38] and /query [17:37:49] try that when you have posted a password ;) Or your realname (in my case) [17:37:54] ok, true. [17:38:04] but I think it's a bad idea in general to create new communication media that lack transparency. [17:38:22] then we should discuss onwiki [17:38:45] ok [17:38:48] Saibo: what page? [17:38:58] however, message me if you have questions - I am online for some hours now [17:39:35] well, best the bugzillareplacent-wiki which doesn't exist ,) [17:39:42] *replacement [17:40:07] meta probably.. [17:40:11] Saibo: but, for this specific issue, gadgets improvement/testing, what is your preferred.... ok, where? [17:40:56] we do not have a central page - afaik [17:41:43] problems with specific gadgets are discussed on the talk pages of the gadgets, of course [17:44:32] see you in query [17:44:47] hi varnent [17:45:00] yoodle [17:45:14] Saibo, who just left, is a bit shy about talking in public logged channels, but is very interested in ensuring there are gadget resources, a gadget helpdesk, etc to help gadget authors [17:48:38] varnent: which is Relevant To Your Interests :) [17:49:30] excellent!! [17:49:36] I like the gadgets :) [17:49:43] Whoooo [17:50:14] if they want help with "structure" we could make it a project of the extension developers wikiproject to give it a home and place to document progress, involvement [17:50:27] I was actually going to pick your brain about a related overarching topic [17:50:42] btw, varnent , I know I owe you a few replies; Just wanted to say, I'm not ignoring you :) [17:50:59] guillom: lol - no problem - I can be patient :) [17:51:44] sumanah: I'm curious - is it your sense that the current listserv and IRC ways of promoting activities enough or should we be contemplating new ways to get the word out to developers about efforts? [17:51:50] varnent: the latter. [17:52:14] varnent: especially re extensions, gadgets, toolserver tools, bots, and templates. [17:52:45] sumanah: I'm game for that conversation at some point - not sure what those may look like - maybe a more fresh news/updates section on the home page of MW.org? [17:53:11] varnent: that would help. but more than that we simply need to find them and raise their consciousness that they are even part of a community! [17:53:15] find out where they are now [17:53:19] if they talk to each other [17:53:21] if so, where [17:53:22] my hunch is we need a few supplementals for the folks more on the peripheral [17:53:39] right - where are they - how can we find them - how do they want to be communicated with, etc. [17:53:59] listserv and IRC seems to reach the "core" - but not the potential new folks who can be sucked in [17:55:25] varnent: agreed [17:55:46] sumanah: what about a sort of "newest ways" box on this page - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_contribute - that also appears on the homepage - perhaps on that page put up an ad for a survey for newbies to get other ideas? [17:56:21] to promote when we're in a rush to squish bugs, the page drive, upcoming hackathons, etc. [17:56:28] varnent: I don't like the name, but it's a good idea [17:56:45] varnent: what is on your plate right now? I hesitate to add another thing [17:57:14] sumanah: a few of the things on my plate sort of relate to getting the word out - like the upcoming IRC chat and the page drive [17:57:30] right [17:57:59] so the survey and such I'm less interested in personally per se - but the overall problem seems like a thorn that needs to be at least partly addressed to make other things easier :) [17:58:05] yep [17:58:49] I'll play around with a box to post more current activities to place on that page and home page if it looks alright - that seems like a reasonable and quick first step [17:59:10] maybe a listserv chat to solicit other ideas and see if someone suggests a survey who could then be recruited to lead it? :) [17:59:28] varnent: my head's elsewhere -- ask guillom tomorrow :) [17:59:45] will do [18:00:18] (tomorrow sounds good; I'm a bit busy for the next 2 hours, then I'm off to bed) [18:00:27] sumanah: this was thread that got me thinking about it - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:User_talk:Varnent/Page_drive [18:00:46] makes sense varnent [18:00:55] guillom: that works - I'll be around in IRC all day - so feel free to ping if you see me and are free - otherwise I'll try to see if you're free at some point :) [18:01:04] alright [18:01:21] sumanah: unrelated, but a FYI - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Varnent/CreatingChange2012/Report [18:01:46] lol - it's not exciting enough to read by any means - but you may like the photos :) [18:30:27] yuvipanda: one last thing before I go, yes, Chennai hackathon, please do distribute GSoC-related flyers [18:30:33] if you need anything else, let me know! [18:36:10] yuvipanda: ping [22:22:55] varnent: ok, I'm out of my meetings [22:23:07] sorry that I was lobbing things at you while staying out of touch :) [22:23:22] lol - no problem - I do it to ppl all the time so I can't really complain much :) [22:24:38] finally - Template:CategoryTOC is working the way I want it to - lol - simple pleasures and little victories :) [22:24:44] hee! [22:24:46] so the main page is tweaked with the new section [22:25:03] I may spice up the look at some point - but wanted to get it functional and up for folks to see [22:27:21] general feedback from folks was "oh yeah - that wasn't there before?" [22:28:18] then there you have it :) [22:29:30] so is Le Tour de Wik?? something that should be done again - or should we just adapt the RL related notes from that to some docs? [22:32:33] varnent: both? not sure. :-) [22:32:37] *sumanah looks at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_developer_hub [22:32:47] varnent: and not sure whether you know this, but Krinkle is on vacation right now [22:33:01] yeah - for a couple weeks if I remember right? [22:33:15] varnent: yes [22:33:39] I saved the link for later reference - so it'll come back up in my to-do list at some point :) can ask him about if we need another tour - in the meantime will see what we can pull for docs [22:33:49] varnent: February 20 is the best time to start reaching him again [22:33:53] makes sense varnent