[00:01:03] <Reedy>	whatever works fine for me
[00:01:57] <neilk_>	Reedy: give us a few minutes please
[00:02:01] <Reedy>	ook
[00:04:05] <neilk_>	Reedy: we are going to revert
[00:04:10] <neilk_>	Reedy: we'll do ours tomorrow
[00:07:34] <Reedy>	right
[00:11:54] <neilk_>	Reedy: almost there
[00:15:08] <neilk_>	Reedy: seems to be okay now, you can deploy
[00:15:44] <Reedy>	cheers
[00:17:55] <neilk_>	AGH
[00:17:58] <neilk_>	no don't just yet
[00:18:01] <neilk_>	Reedy ^^
[00:18:23] <Reedy>	i did svn up to remove your changes
[00:19:43] <neilk_>	I know
[00:19:48] <neilk_>	I forgot I did wmf-config changes too
[00:19:50] <neilk_>	did you deploy?
[00:20:08] <Reedy>	it's hanging near the end as usual
[00:21:01] <neilk_>	ok, I will do another immediately after. let me know when yours is over.
[00:21:24] <Reedy>	I just reverted your wmf-config changes and pushed
[00:21:42] <neilk_>	oh, ok
[00:21:55] <neilk_>	wait, no
[00:22:06] <neilk_>	now I don't know what happened
[00:22:41] <Reedy>	http://pastebin.com/5MCBKGD7 is w hat i reverted
[00:23:47] <neilk_>	Reedy: Ok, then all is well -- thank yo
[00:23:50] <neilk_>	you
[01:51:37] <preilly>	awjr: have you seen any of the hyper juice batteries?
[02:00:39] <awjr>	preilly: not since july
[02:00:52] <awjr>	are they still missing?
[02:09:18] <preilly>	awjr: one is still missing
[02:09:31] <awjr>	argh! oit doesn't know who has it?!
[17:33:25] <TrevorParscal>	wmf features team people - please see email about features meeting changes for today
[17:35:15] <gwicke>	TrevorParscal: gwicke@wikimedia.org or wicke@wikidev.net
[17:35:58] <gwicke>	TrevorParscal: ok, will check spam etc
[17:36:18] <TrevorParscal>	it was sent to gwicke@wikimedia.org
[17:36:23] <TrevorParscal>	i haven't got any bounces
[17:36:44] <gwicke>	ah- sorry, just arrived
[17:36:46] <TrevorParscal>	I used the same list as Alolita used to announce her schedule for the next couple weeks and that the meetings would be held by me
[17:36:49] <TrevorParscal>	cool
[17:36:52] <TrevorParscal>	glad it came :)
[17:37:46] <gwicke>	btw- what do you think about using the HTML parser spec?
[17:38:19] <TrevorParscal>	i have to read that thread
[17:38:21] <TrevorParscal>	but I like it
[17:38:43] <TrevorParscal>	most people don't realize that Wikitext IS html with some short-hand syntax and macros mixed in
[17:39:16] <gwicke>	yep
[17:39:30] <TrevorParscal>	they think it's something entirely different, but since we let HTML mostly pass through and mix into the shorthand and then render shorthand to HTML, it's HTML that is running the show, not Wikitext
[17:39:32] <gwicke>	the general issues for sanitation and larger-scale parsing are the same
[17:39:36] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[17:41:37] <gwicke>	have been fighting with js parsers today, some actually work on each platform..
[17:46:16] <TrevorParscal>	JS HTML5 parsers?
[17:46:43] <RoanKattouw>	Visual editor people, this is your warning that IE sucks
[17:46:50] <TrevorParscal>	ha ha
[17:46:52] <RoanKattouw>	VE did the following two things that can't be done in IE:
[17:46:58] <RoanKattouw>	1. someArray.indexOf()
[17:47:03] <RoanKattouw>	2. someArray.splice( 0, undefined )
[17:47:07] <TrevorParscal>	Array.indexOf is known - we can add a shim
[17:47:19] <TrevorParscal>	2 sounds like a bug in VE
[17:47:20] <RoanKattouw>	Already done
[17:47:22] <RoanKattouw>	es.arrayIndexOf
[17:47:25] <TrevorParscal>	nice
[17:47:26] <RoanKattouw>	2 is already fixed
[17:47:30] <TrevorParscal>	good work
[17:47:32] <RoanKattouw>	I've already eliminated all IE-specific test failures
[17:47:45] <RoanKattouw>	I just wanted to draw attention to it so we don't go and reintroduce this stuff after I clean it up :)
[17:48:11] *TrevorParscal 	high-5s Roan like a character from an American TV show from the early 1990s
[17:48:15] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: 2 is not actually a bug in VE. AIUI (0, undefined) should work and be equivalent to (0), and it is in non-IE browsers
[17:48:37] *RoanKattouw 	at age 3 attempts to return high-5
[17:48:44] <gwicke>	TrevorParscal: yes, JS HTML5 parsers
[17:49:09] <TrevorParscal>	gwicke: nice
[17:49:45] <gwicke>	there are some collected links at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:GWicke#Parser if you are interested
[17:49:52] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: any reason not to just use "es.arrayIndexOf = $.inArray;" ?
[17:49:58] <TrevorParscal>	http://api.jquery.com/jQuery.inArray/
[17:50:11] <RoanKattouw>	Ah, oh :D
[17:50:12] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[17:50:22] <RoanKattouw>	We might as well *use* $.inArray throughout then
[17:50:25] <TrevorParscal>	we've been aliasing these things
[17:50:31] <RoanKattouw>	Oh right
[17:50:34] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah, please fix
[17:50:36] <RoanKattouw>	I'm grabbing dinner
[17:50:39] <TrevorParscal>	no worries
[17:50:47] <TrevorParscal>	that way there's only jquery in the codebase where we absolutely need it
[18:00:14] <guillom>	TrevorParscal, I like the format you're going to explore today for the features team meeting. I hope it works.
[18:00:23] <TrevorParscal>	me too
[18:00:34] <TrevorParscal>	thanks for supporting it
[18:08:57] *RoanKattouw 	likes it too
[18:13:35] <guillom>	The only concern I have is that we're moving to yet another IRC channel; I would recommend doing it in here in order to encourage transparency, and to engage volunteers into what we do (unless of course it's annoying people, or other people are disrupting the meeting). We obviously don't have to do it now, but I think it'd be worth a try for a future meeting.
[18:14:19] <RoanKattouw>	+1
[18:19:09] *gwicke 	is also looking forward to the new format
[18:51:40] <jorm>	+1; too many irc channels.
[19:06:01] <jorm>	word.
[19:06:08] <TrevorParscal>	OK - so here's the meeting now
[19:06:11] <raindrift>	so, is the features meeting here now?
[19:06:13] <TrevorParscal>	Welcome welcome
[19:06:22] <jorm>	yay!
[19:06:29] <jorm>	transparency++
[19:07:22] <jorm>	happy about this.  i have 12 irc channels open.
[19:07:43] <Krinkle>	12 ? puh :P
[19:08:00] <Krinkle>	peanuts. Try 49
[19:08:07] <Krinkle>	k, I'm crazy
[19:08:19] <Krinkle>	http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/FeaturesTeam20111115
[19:08:19] <jorm>	it's all hot here in oakland.
[19:08:26] <jorm>	not as hot as it will be in mumbai, but whatever.
[19:08:46] <Krinkle>	just reminder, this channel is logged
[19:08:50] <Krinkle>	elephant2:
[19:08:58] <TrevorParscal>	So, as stated in the email - if you have questions for other team members that others may also benefit from being able to read the answer, ask them here
[19:09:03] <TrevorParscal>	otherwise, get back to freaking work!
[19:09:42] *RoanKattouw 	fails to see how that is a "meeting"
[19:09:47] <Krinkle>	WMF is deploying Windows Vista ?
[19:09:54] <RoanKattouw>	hehehe
[19:09:55] <Krinkle>	every week ?
[19:10:14] <guillom>	RoanKattouw, the best meetings are those that you don't notice.
[19:10:32] <neilk_>	Hey folks
[19:10:37] <guillom>	hi
[19:10:42] <gwicke>	hi neilk_
[19:11:08] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: I defy your definition of meeting! Muwha ha ha ha!
[19:12:24] <RoanKattouw>	*crickets*
[19:12:25] <TrevorParscal>	brion: we invite you to add some bullet points on the parser work you're doing if you've got a min: http://etherpad.wikimedia.org/FeaturesTeam20111115
[19:12:25] <jorm>	are we going to have FBD phase 1 bugfixes ready for deploy tomorrow?
[19:12:35] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: Now that you're here we might as well talk RL2 business
[19:12:40] <Inez>	Hello
[19:12:41] <rmoen>	Yes :)
[19:12:47] <TrevorParscal>	Inez!
[19:13:01] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: Where are you at re RL2?
[19:13:23] <jorm>	Roan: Re Brighton Hackathon: are you guys doing t-shirts? I mean, it's late; i'm not sure what the status is.
[19:13:30] <jorm>	Heather has a usable file for printing.
[19:13:30] <Krinkle>	finishing up new category ajax, going to commit tonight (finally)
[19:13:36] <Krinkle>	lemme check working copy / todo list
[19:13:48] <RoanKattouw>	jorm: I've already ordered them
[19:14:03] <jorm>	oh.  problem solved then, i think.
[19:14:06] <RoanKattouw>	Using the 1400x1100ish file on Commons
[19:14:09] <RoanKattouw>	(and who's Heather?)
[19:14:40] <jorm>	designer, does outreach  stuff.
[19:14:45] <jorm>	speaking of hackathons.
[19:15:40] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: Yay
[19:15:41] <Krinkle>	RoanKattouw: the category thing is taking a little longer due to some IE bugs. I'm using onchange on the <select> to detect if the chosen value is <option data-gadgets-newcategory>New category..</option>, and if so show() the input[text].
[19:15:45] <jorm>	there's a movement to change the format and identities, make them both more cohesive and disparate.  e.g., WMF vs. Wikipedia types.  We have two kinds.  The mumbai and sf ones are more "wikipedia" and open; every other one we've done is all Mediawiki/WMF.
[19:15:53] <Krinkle>	RoanKattouw: Need to bind on blur as well probably
[19:15:53] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: I've updated the TODO list on the wiki page, and written a migration script. Planning to work on PHPUnit tests next
[19:16:11] <Krinkle>	Also when going from the select directly to the submit, sometimes firefox doesn't trigger the onchange, ARgh!
[19:16:17] <jorm>	we're going to create a library of collatoral for them, stuff that we can just drop in from time to time.  stuff like badge designs, banners, etc.
[19:16:18] <Krinkle>	RoanKattouw: nice
[19:16:36] <jorm>	anyways.  here's this: http://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hackathon_Planning
[19:16:40] <TrevorParscal>	Krinkle: watch out for change events, they are tricky bastards
[19:16:48] <jorm>	feel free to leave comments and such about your ideas for answers to any questions there.
[19:17:22] <jorm>	remember that this is NOT web-application stuff.  this is brochure stuff.  so it's about how we want to express identity.
[19:17:55] <TrevorParscal>	if the shirt doesn't have glow-in-the-dark ink, i'm out
[19:18:17] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: Also fun: array.splice( 0 ) vs array.splice( 0, undefined ) . They behave identically in most browsers (and I believe that's the right thing), but in IE array.splice( 0, undefined ) returns []
[19:18:25] <Krinkle>	TrevorParscal: jQuery covers a lot of that bastrardism, still some left though
[19:18:42] <jorm>	erik wants to split wikimedia and wikipedia branding.  so this gets trickier.
[19:18:49] <TrevorParscal>	Krinkle: especially in IE6 - but I don't know if you are covering that
[19:19:01] <jorm>	lots of tricksy branding issues.
[19:19:01] <TrevorParscal>	jorm: how are they merged atm?
[19:19:21] <jorm>	right now, they aren't so much as they are all "WMF" focused.
[19:19:32] <TrevorParscal>	WMF has a different typeface, logo, etc.
[19:19:38] <jorm>	for mumbai, we started to use more "Wikipedia" branding.  But for SF, it's going to be all Wikipedia.
[19:19:46] <neilk_>	I don't see why one would want to separate brands given that nobody has any idea what the WMF is.
[19:20:00] <jorm>	solving the branding issues and design is heather's job, but our input is appreciated.
[19:20:01] <neilk_>	Hey, that really important and successful product? That's not us.
[19:20:15] <jorm>	yeah, that's the problem.
[19:20:25] *TrevorParscal 	votes we renamed Wikimedia Foundation to Wikipedia foundation and get it over with
[19:20:26] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: Did you read Erik's comments re permissions model?
[19:20:32] <neilk_>	TrevorParscal: +1.
[19:20:40] <gwicke>	+1.
[19:20:43] *RoanKattouw 	unleashes the sister project editors on TrevorParscal
[19:20:46] <jorm>	Wikipedia, Mediawiki, Wikimedia.
[19:21:11] <jorm>	I read that in the voice of Clash of the Titans:  "Unleash the Sister Projects!"
[19:21:12] <Krinkle>	RoanKattouw: Yep, 2nd on todo list to reply to that. Got some thoughts on that indeed. I think Erik will most likely be satisfied with our plans, just not properly documented/presented yet.
[19:21:16] <TrevorParscal>	retain "Wikipedia, Mediawiki", remove ", Wikimedia"
[19:21:35] <neilk_>	I think we need another variant on Wiki and *edia.
[19:21:44] <Krinkle>	Another ?
[19:21:51] <neilk_>	we don't have PediaWiki yet.
[19:22:04] <jorm>	there's Pediapress.
[19:22:04] <Reedy>	Wikipledia
[19:22:04] <gwicke>	the only one left with those two words
[19:22:09] <TrevorParscal>	That sounds like a wiki for pedaphles
[19:22:14] <jorm>	WikiReedya.
[19:22:15] <TrevorParscal>	*pedophiles
[19:22:23] <jorm>	i got called a pedophile today!
[19:22:33] <neilk_>	ok I'm sorry, is there actual business in this meeting before we turn into 4chan?
[19:22:40] <Reedy>	MOAR DRAMA
[19:22:43] <jorm>	one of those "hah hah lemme screenshot this banner ontop of an inappropriate article title" things.
[19:22:57] <TrevorParscal>	we have 8 min left
[19:23:06] <TrevorParscal>	anyone have any real questions?
[19:23:08] <Krinkle>	it's a 30 min meeting now ?
[19:23:12] <neilk_>	k, is anybody blocked and wants to yell for help?
[19:23:15] <TrevorParscal>	it should be 10min
[19:23:17] <TrevorParscal>	imo
[19:23:30] <jorm>	i'm going to be going to india tomorrow. does anyone need anything before then?
[19:23:31] <TrevorParscal>	but I thought I would allow people to come and go as they withsh
[19:23:39] <Krinkle>	yeah
[19:23:46] <jorm>	Motion on the table: Abolish this meeting.
[19:23:59] *TrevorParscal 	is working on it
[19:24:02] *guillom 	seconds.
[19:24:06] <TrevorParscal>	+1
[19:24:10] <RoanKattouw>	Well if this is what the meeting is like, then yes
[19:24:12] <jorm>	Motion seconded.
[19:24:17] <jorm>	All in favor, say "aye"
[19:24:21] <TrevorParscal>	aye
[19:24:25] <jorm>	aye
[19:24:26] <RoanKattouw>	Maybe we should have it less frequently
[19:24:29] <RoanKattouw>	Like the ops folks do
[19:24:30] <gwicke>	ayeish
[19:24:32] <neilk_>	RoanKattouw: did you feel you were getting something from the phone meetings?
[19:24:34] <guillom>	As long as I get notes of what you guys are doing so I can write the monthly report, do what you want :)
[19:24:38] <TrevorParscal>	To be fair, this isn't really a "meeting"
[19:24:44] <RoanKattouw>	neilk_: Well at least people were talking about what they're doing
[19:24:46] <TrevorParscal>	it's more of office hours
[19:24:51] <neilk_>	I would be more in favor of a video meeting than a phone meeting
[19:24:57] <neilk_>	we can do a hangout on G+ for free
[19:25:02] <jorm>	guillom, the problem with notes from me is that my shit just seems to get more and more ephemeral every week.
[19:25:06] <neilk_>	or rather not for free since we pay for G apps.
[19:25:17] <jorm>	office hours are actually a pretty good format, IMO.
[19:25:19] <Krinkle>	I think the format as it was today is good. Perhaps enforce more noting on Etherpad though, I'd like to know more about ppls projects (which I could on the phone and can't now due to lack of etherpadding)
[19:25:20] <TrevorParscal>	does anyone want to try a G+ hangout next week?
[19:25:30] <jorm>	i actually wonder if we shouldn't turn this meeting *into* an office hours.
[19:25:37] <Krinkle>	60 min -> 30 min, okay. phone -> irc okay (if we're strict on etherpad)
[19:25:37] <jorm>	people explain what they're doing and answer questions.
[19:25:38] <neilk_>	I would like to try a G+ hangout.
[19:25:39] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[19:25:44] <neilk_>	Trust me, video is 100% different from audio.
[19:25:44] <guillom>	Note: if you're using Linux you'll need to download packages for G+ hangout.
[19:25:49] <TrevorParscal>	Krinkle: I notice though that people used the ether pad a lot more today
[19:25:54] <guillom>	Indeed
[19:25:54] <Krinkle>	TrevorParscal: yep
[19:25:55] <RoanKattouw>	I think office hours would be more useful than talking to each other
[19:26:02] <jorm>	agree++
[19:26:07] <neilk_>	Feature team office hours?
[19:26:07] <jorm>	we mostly know what we're doing.
[19:26:13] <jorm>	why not?
[19:26:34] <jorm>	"Listen. We're all gonna be in this channel and shooting the shit about what we're doing; show up if you have questions."
[19:26:42] <neilk_>	I kinda like that.
[19:26:43] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[19:26:53] <TrevorParscal>	so, let's call it that next week
[19:26:59] <RoanKattouw>	+1
[19:27:00] <jorm>	that improves our transparency overall.
[19:27:08] <jorm>	and involves the community more.
[19:27:09] <neilk_>	But that's us who are in the office
[19:27:19] <neilk_>	I'd like to double check that it's okay with the people who are relatively isolated.
[19:27:20] <RoanKattouw>	We can still talk to /each other/ about what we're doing, even if no one else shows up
[19:27:28] <jorm>	next week i've got an in lieu day on tuesday but i can come into irc assuming i'm not asleep.
[19:27:41] <RoanKattouw>	neilk_: IRC >> phone
[19:27:44] <jorm>	next week is still India Recovery for the i18N people.
[19:27:46] <RoanKattouw>	(for most things)
[19:27:49] <jorm>	the phone shit is USELESS>
[19:27:59] <RoanKattouw>	Phone is good for some things
[19:28:00] <Krinkle>	+1 for office hours
[19:28:10] <RoanKattouw>	But as the number of participants rises, IRC becomes more useful
[19:28:14] <gwicke>	there is rarely actual discussion with the phone
[19:28:17] <Reedy>	SecondLife!
[19:28:30] <gwicke>	as nobody understands anything as soon as two people speak at the same time
[19:28:34] <jorm>	also, irc office hours allows for passive interrupt.
[19:28:35] <Krinkle>	Let's create a Wow server and meet there xD
[19:28:42] <neilk_>	and half the comments from the phone are like "SPEAK UP"
[19:28:42] *Krinkle 	has never played WoW
[19:28:44] <jorm>	anyone can monitor and join.
[19:28:47] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[19:28:55] <neilk_>	World of Wikicraft
[19:28:59] <guillom>	I remember when Cyn mentioned meetings on Second Life last year.
[19:29:03] <Krinkle>	and easier to follow for non-natives and fast speaking Americans
[19:29:06] <RoanKattouw>	IRC also allows parallel discussion, bathroom breaks, zero chance of not hearing stuff, etc
[19:29:15] <jorm>	well, she's ex Linden, so of course.
[19:29:21] <jorm>	logging!
[19:29:26] <jorm>	url pasting!
[19:29:29] <neilk_>	but i'd like to add that online meetings also lead to a lack of trust
[19:29:41] <RoanKattouw>	Lack of trust, how?
[19:29:44] <neilk_>	I used to be part of a team that was 1/2 mountain view and 1/2 nyc
[19:29:55] <jorm>	you're talking about lack of empathy due to lack of vocal and physical communication cues?
[19:29:59] <neilk_>	yes
[19:30:07] <jorm>	yeah.
[19:30:10] <neilk_>	it's easier to assume that there is a cabal
[19:30:11] <RoanKattouw>	Your example is 50-50 and I can see how that would lead to us vs them
[19:30:14] <jorm>	this is what aryeh was on about around a year ago.
[19:30:17] <TrevorParscal>	It also allows multi-tasking - so you can take immediate action on things being discussed, or looking things up to help answer questions, etc.
[19:30:29] <jorm>	i think it's easier to assume a cabal when we have closed phone meetings.
[19:30:30] <RoanKattouw>	For us the office is the only possible cabal
[19:30:33] <RoanKattouw>	Every remote dev is isolated
[19:30:39] <Krinkle>	lol
[19:30:55] <neilk_>	anyway, I'm just saying I think video is great for increasing the feeling that we're all on the same team and can, for instance, ask each other for help.
[19:30:55] <RoanKattouw>	Even here in .nl I don't think we actually have two employees living within 50 miles of each other
[19:30:55] <Krinkle>	we can have little 1:1 cabals in PM though
[19:31:07] <jorm>	that said, while the idea of having office hours in -dev is appealing, if they're going to be "true" office hours, they should be in -office
[19:31:09] <RoanKattouw>	Sure, cabals can never be fully eradicated
[19:31:17] <TrevorParscal>	let's write some notes about this conversation at the bottom of the ether pad
[19:31:18] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[19:31:35] <RoanKattouw>	Well, I guess that comes down to what kind of crowd do you want
[19:31:42] <RoanKattouw>	Do you want technical office hrs or community office hrs
[19:31:44] <neilk_>	Trevor: this is the best features meeting like EVER. :)
[19:31:54] <RoanKattouw>	Cause you and I know what -office looks like under full steam
[19:32:03] <guillom>	I think it's ok to have office hours here
[19:32:04] <jorm>	i honestly think that we, as a group, would benefit from having the kind of crowd who hangs in #wikimedia-office
[19:32:06] <TrevorParscal>	ha ha
[19:32:07] <jorm>	for a couple reasons.
[19:32:23] <RoanKattouw>	sure
[19:32:28] <jorm>	one, it exposes the team to "deep core" community members.  two, it helps humanize us to them.
[19:32:41] <RoanKattouw>	But what I'm afraid will happen, as it usually does, is that people like you and Howie do 80% of the talking
[19:32:44] <jorm>	yeah, i'm in most -office conversations.
[19:32:57] <jorm>	well, in most of those conversations, it's focused on the things we're working on.
[19:33:05] <jorm>	so that's natural.
[19:33:13] <RoanKattouw>	That's what office hours are usually like. Requirements/design people talk to community people and the devs yawn
[19:33:21] <jorm>	(but tbh i've been pretty quiet in most of them lately unless sue wants me to talk)
[19:33:29] <Nikerabbit>	surrur
[19:33:31] <jorm>	yeah, i can see that.
[19:33:43] <RoanKattouw>	I'm quiet in most office hrs I've been invited to because there are few tech questions I'm needed for
[19:33:44] <neilk_>	We solved that problem in multimedia. No requirements or design people, so we're directly exposed to the love from the community.
[19:33:45] <RoanKattouw>	Not zero but few
[19:33:54] <RoanKattouw>	neilk_: Understaffing FTW!
[19:34:01] <^demon>	If it's not a tech-related channel, I don't even bother /joining.
[19:34:03] <jorm>	i can tell you that most community members really, really like to know what we're thinking about
[19:34:18] <jorm>	"love"
[19:34:24] *TrevorParscal 	added some notes about ideas for the next meeting to the etherpad
[19:34:35] <neilk_>	I am interested in the community but I think office hours tends to focus our time on a few noisy individuals
[19:34:45] <neilk_>	noisy slash nosy.
[19:35:06] <StevenW>	neilk: there are two remedies for that
[19:35:29] <jorm>	Steven knows the score.
[19:35:30] <Krinkle>	since when is there a #wikimedia-office ? I thought there was #wmfstaff for staff stuff over the course of a day, and #wikimedia for irc office hours
[19:35:36] <RoanKattouw>	You could moderate, Wikimania-meeting-style
[19:35:47] <jorm>	office hours have been in #wikimedia-office for a long time.
[19:35:49] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: -office is for office hours. It's existed forever
[19:35:52] <StevenW>	one, you hold them every week or so, and just hang out. The point being to make your accessible to reduce "why wasn't I consulted" factor.
[19:35:58] <RoanKattouw>	Well, at least for 1.5 yrs I think
[19:36:13] <jorm>	right.  increase accessibility.
[19:36:19] <Krinkle>	ok
[19:36:26] <TrevorParscal>	is there any conflict to us using #wikimedia-office every tuesday at 11:00 - 11:30 PDT?
[19:36:40] <StevenW>	two: or you specifically schedule it at times that are good for the people you want at the meeting. Invite them with a Doodle beforehand or whatever.
[19:36:42] <neilk_>	We could try it
[19:36:45] <jorm>	the first one or two in that mode may be difficulty of noisy, but afterwards they tend to calm down.
[19:36:52] <gwicke>	it might make sense to shorten the global meeting a bit in favor of smaller sub-meetings for individual groups
[19:36:56] <jorm>	no conflict that i know of.
[19:37:09] <gwicke>	or subjects
[19:37:09] <neilk_>	gwicke: yes, we desperately need that for this parser/editor effort.
[19:37:25] <TrevorParscal>	gwicke: true, but we should probably cross that bridge when we come to it - as in, split when it's a problem
[19:37:28] <jorm>	we could say "11:00-11:30 is features discussion, comments and questions limited; 11:30-12:00 questions welcome"
[19:37:35] <TrevorParscal>	this week, most of the i18n people are traveling afaict
[19:37:43] <TrevorParscal>	so, it's artificially focused on SFO people
[19:37:43] <neilk_>	I see no need whatsoever for a "features team" meeting, and groups should schedule together time as needed.
[19:38:02] <jorm>	they are.  in fact, nikerabit's "hurr" up above is the first i've seen from i18n in about 24 hours.
[19:38:09] <gwicke>	well- it is good to see what others are up to
[19:38:19] <gwicke>	but that can also be partly seen from etherpad notes
[19:38:20] <jorm>	we could do that with a wiki page.
[19:38:23] <TrevorParscal>	neilk_: What I'm hoping to do is evolve what we currently have (and are required to do) into something more useful
[19:38:27] <RoanKattouw>	Wiki page ++
[19:38:31] <neilk_>	yeah, but why is it inherently more interesting what Dario is doing compared to say, what StevenW is doing
[19:38:34] <jorm>	mw.org/wiki/FeaturesTeamStatus
[19:38:58] *TrevorParscal 	has to go help Howie and Dario with understanding how bucketing works in mw
[19:38:59] <jorm>	it isn't.  in fact, to me, most of the interesting stuff is like, how steven's work is intersecting with our work.
[19:39:11] <RoanKattouw>	neilk_: You're saying the division of features vs rest is artificial, and the only scopes that make sense are "my direct team" and "all of tech". I agree
[19:39:26] <neilk_>	RoanKattouw: thanks, yes, that's what I mean.
[19:39:28] <jorm>	i would go further and say "all of wmf"
[19:39:30] <RoanKattouw>	Esp since I have done work for all three tech "teams" today
[19:39:39] <RoanKattouw>	All of WMF is cool too
[19:39:43] <jorm>	since half my meetings these days are things like "how can tech help global dev" and shit.
[19:39:50] <RoanKattouw>	Although that's where things might start getting too broad
[19:39:54] <Krinkle>	Yes, if we're going more public with the features meeting it should probably not be on etherpad since reverting/abuse is a pain in a but there
[19:40:00] <Krinkle>	but on a wiki page
[19:40:03] <RoanKattouw>	*most* of what goes on in global dev is not interesting to tech people and v.v.
[19:40:12] <RoanKattouw>	Krinkle: +1
[19:40:17] <jorm>	agree.  but it still happens.
[19:40:17] <neilk_>	also, I have pretty good linkages with other features people, but when it comes to ops I don't really know who does what or who would be a good person to talk to about getting X or Y done.
[19:40:36] <Krinkle>	RoanKattouw: Recommding we draft on etherpad internally (as in, don't spam the url in -office), then paste to wiki afterwards
[19:40:44] <RoanKattouw>	Right
[19:40:46] <RoanKattouw>	That's OK too
[19:40:53] <neilk_>	I will have the solution to ether/wiki crossover soon, I hope
[19:41:25] <RoanKattouw>	neilk_: If you need a what's-what about ops you can ask me too. Also, now that we have labs for puppet I do some ops work myself from time to time :)
[19:41:27] <neilk_>	I'm kicking UW stuff over to raindrift and trying to deploy the etherpad/wiki integration I did months ago.
[19:41:37] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[19:42:01] <neilk_>	k this "meeting" is officially 10 min over now
[19:42:15] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[19:42:57] <RoanKattouw>	Back to work
[19:45:43] <jorm>	wait. we had a meeting?
[19:45:49] <jorm>	why wasn't i consulted?
[19:46:24] <^demon>	Meeting?
[19:46:28] <^demon>	Nobody tells me anything :(
[19:47:23] <jorm>	that's because we pretty much voted and decided that you're totally incompetent.
[19:49:46] *Krinkle 	creates wiki page thingy
[19:51:34] <^demon>	jorm: We'll see how competent everyone is when I take their svn access for such a treasonous vote ;-)
[19:52:18] <jorm>	i, of course, voted you as being competent.
[19:52:28] <jorm>	but i was sadly overruled.
[19:58:52] *jorm 	resists the urge to reply to ^demon's latest wikitech-l post with "You have friends?"
[20:00:40] <^demon>	Go for it. It's not like the signal:noise can get any worse for the past ~week.
[20:01:21] *gwicke 	enjoyed following the chat without that annoying hidden line in etherpad
[20:04:59] <Krinkle-away>	indeed gwicke :D
[20:05:59] <sumanah>	 ha
[20:06:47] <apergos>	you know..  it can.  thats the sad thing
[20:07:11] <Krinkle>	sumanah: something tells me I still have something to do for you, but don't see anything on my agenda/todo list (other than the mw database graphic). Is there ?
[20:07:25] <sumanah>	Krinkle: probably a patch review
[20:07:43] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: was there any consensus on using #wikimedia-office vs. #wikimedia-dev next time for Features team office hours?
[20:07:48] <sumanah>	Krinkle: there was at least one patch you self-assigned a few weeks ago & said you'd do "next week"
[20:07:52] <RoanKattouw>	I don't think so
[20:08:05] <TrevorParscal>	i'm going to keep it in #wikimedia-dev for now
[20:08:08] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[20:08:11] <Krinkle>	sumanah: ok, i'll check it out
[20:08:30] <sumanah>	thanks Krinkle
[20:08:37] <sumanah>	and thank you for the database diagram
[20:08:47] <sumanah>	TrevorParscal: :-) speaking of diagrams!
[20:09:02] <Krinkle>	I guess meeting in -dev are okay, if the audience are generally devs also. -office seems more suited for longer sessions / simplified techtalk/non tech talk
[20:09:38] <Krinkle>	in that the channel should be simultaneously usable for any other devs needing something (not be crowded with "What's mediawiki?" if you know what i mean)
[20:10:04] *TrevorParscal 	hides from sumanah 
[20:10:21] <Krinkle>	sumanah: you're welcome
[20:10:25] *sumanah 	waits patiently with a smile and a slice of ice cream cake
[20:10:39] <apergos>	ooohhhh ice cream cake, sounds good
[20:10:55] <Reedy>	Dear Eclipse, Y U CRASH?
[20:11:03] <Reedy>	<insertjavajoke>
[20:11:28] <Krinkle>	<inserts http://projects.haykranen.nl/java/ >
[20:12:44] <sumanah>	biab
[20:15:04] *TrevorParscal 	om nom nom
[21:01:58] <sumanah>	RoanKattouw: thank you for improving the HTTPS Everywhere ruleset
[21:02:05] <sumanah>	I got the upgrade and huzzah
[21:02:12] <RoanKattouw>	Yay
[21:02:30] *Reedy 	hopes to see singers load dropping a lots
[21:02:36] <Reedy>	to ganglia!
[21:03:13] <Reedy>	http://ganglia3.wikimedia.org/?r=month&cs=&ce=&m=&c=Miscellaneous+pmtpa&h=singer.wikimedia.org&mc=2&z=small&q=
[21:03:21] <Reedy>	Well that sucks, apparently no decline over the last month
[21:03:22] <RoanKattouw>	Whoa
[21:03:28] <RoanKattouw>	Actual CPU usage on the SSL cluster!
[21:03:31] <RoanKattouw>	Like, visible on the graphs!
[21:03:36] *sumanah 	not allowed to look at that.
[21:03:43] <RoanKattouw>	http://ganglia.wikimedia.org/?c=SSL%20cluster%20eqiad&m=cpu_report&r=hour&s=descending&hc=3&mc=3
[21:03:45] <Reedy>	Eh?
[21:03:49] <Reedy>	It's not closed down
[21:03:56] <RoanKattouw>	HE has the broken ruleset
[21:04:02] <RoanKattouw>	My updated version has a fix for ganglia
[21:04:06] <RoanKattouw>	I thought this would happen
[21:04:07] <Reedy>	http://ganglia3.wikimedia.org/?r=year&cs=&ce=&m=&c=Miscellaneous+pmtpa&h=singer.wikimedia.org&mc=2&z=small&q= suggests more growth
[21:04:08] <Reedy>	haha
[21:04:13] <RoanKattouw>	And I am STILL waiting for Ryan's list
[21:04:23] <Reedy>	"I work for fucking Wikipedia, don't change it, I know this is right"
[21:04:24] <RoanKattouw>	Bah, ganglia3 is broken too
[21:04:26] *RoanKattouw 	fixes
[21:04:33] <RoanKattouw>	Reedy: No, they took an old version
[21:04:36] <sumanah>	A username and password are being requested by https://ganglia3.wikimedia.org. The site says: "Nagios Access"
[21:05:06] <sumanah>	http link works though
[21:05:47] <RoanKattouw>	Fixed in my github now
[21:07:22] <Reedy>	Why is RT so slooooow
[21:11:42] <Reedy>	Anyone know what the plan is for killing secure.wm.o?
[21:12:07] <Reedy>	I know we need to ideally rewrite the requests back to newsecure
[21:12:18] <RoanKattouw>	That's the plan
[21:12:26] <RoanKattouw>	I asked Ryan to give me a rewrite rule template
[21:12:37] <RoanKattouw>	So I could then generate rules for all 800 wikis
[21:12:37] <RoanKattouw>	But he never did that
[21:12:43] <RoanKattouw>	Nor did he ever get me the list of non-SSL domains
[21:12:53] <Reedy>	He is a busy man
[21:13:27] <RoanKattouw>	That he is indeed
[21:15:39] <Reedy>	Speak of the devil
[21:16:59] <Platonides>	It's just a matter of reversing the rewrite
[21:17:06] <Reedy>	Ryan_Lane
[21:17:06] <Reedy>	Ryan_Lane
[21:17:07] <Platonides>	shouldn't be hard
[21:17:07] <Reedy>	Ryan_Lane
[21:17:28] <RoanKattouw>	lol
[21:17:30] <Platonides>	only commons and meta may give a few problems
[21:18:07] <Ryan_Lane>	Reedy: ?
[21:18:27] <Reedy>	We were discussing killing secure.wm.o
[21:18:39] <Ryan_Lane>	we need redirects
[21:18:44] <Platonides>	http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page redirects to commons.wikimedia.org
[21:18:45] <Ryan_Lane>	and we need them in nginx format
[21:18:50] <Platonides>	so we could evan skip that
[21:18:56] <Ryan_Lane>	eh?
[21:19:07] <Ryan_Lane>	no. links to secure must continue to work. forever.
[21:19:21] <Platonides>	Ryan_Lane, that's for redirecting
[21:19:30] <RoanKattouw>	Ryan_Lane: Yes, I need that boilerplate/template for an nginx rule that you promised me like a month ago
[21:19:40] <Ryan_Lane>	eh? I don't understand what you mean, Platonides
[21:19:51] <Ryan_Lane>	RoanKattouw: yeah. I haven't had a chance to get to it yet
[21:20:14] <RoanKattouw>	Figured
[21:20:19] <Ryan_Lane>	RoanKattouw: I'd kind to like to do it as a hash in puppet, if possible
[21:20:19] <RoanKattouw>	Also, list of non-SSL domaisn
[21:20:22] <Ryan_Lane>	I have that
[21:20:24] <Ryan_Lane>	kind of
[21:20:25] <RoanKattouw>	That's OK too
[21:20:44] <RoanKattouw>	You give me "stuff" and say "expand X for all 820 wikis" and I do it
[21:21:02] <Ryan_Lane>	the non-ssl domains still have some non-http services
[21:21:33] <Platonides>	I think something like this may work:
[21:21:34] <Platonides>	rewrite ^/([^/]*)/([^/]*)/(.*)$ https://$2.$1.org/$3 last;
[21:21:49] <Ryan_Lane>	unfortunately, not
[21:21:53] <Platonides>	why?
[21:22:10] <Ryan_Lane>	because not all secure urls were made that way
[21:22:33] <Platonides>	note that http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page redirects to http://commons.wikimedia.org
[21:22:45] <Ryan_Lane>	so?
[21:23:06] <Ryan_Lane>	why does that matter?
[21:23:08] <Platonides>	in case you meant the wikipedia in their urls
[21:23:22] <RoanKattouw>	Hm
[21:23:25] <Platonides>	although obviously directly producing the right redirect would be preferable
[21:23:30] <RoanKattouw>	You'd have to confirm that works for every single wiki out there
[21:23:50] <RoanKattouw>	But other than that it sounds attractive to me
[21:24:07] <Ryan_Lane>	I'm not seeing where this is going
[21:24:52] <Platonides>	I suppose there's no nginx at labs to play with, either...
[21:25:23] <Ryan_Lane>	not currently. that's actually a harder one to set up
[21:25:35] <Ryan_Lane>	it requires LVS, which is a blocker right now
[21:25:52] <Ryan_Lane>	well, it requires the lack of NATing
[21:27:07] <Ryan_Lane>	RoanKattouw: http://pastebin.com/zqjtnx09
[21:27:13] <RoanKattouw>	Ryan_Lane: Basically we're saying that even for the domains that would be mapped wrong with a simplistic rewrite, there are existing redirects in place that would make it work
[21:27:28] <Ryan_Lane>	ah
[21:27:43] <Ryan_Lane>	assuming those never go away ;)
[21:28:20] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah they probably rely on an edge case in the CommonSettings.php logic, that would have to be documented and preserved
[21:28:40] <RoanKattouw>	Ryan_Lane: Sweet thank you, I will incorporate that tomorrow. First, sleep
[21:28:51] <Platonides>	RoanKattouw, what is that list of wikimedia.org for?
[21:28:58] <Ryan_Lane>	non-ssl hosts
[21:29:02] <Platonides>	for httpseverywhere?
[21:29:07] <Ryan_Lane>	some likely don't need to be there
[21:29:15] <Ryan_Lane>	as they may not even be running http :)
[21:29:19] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[21:29:21] <Ryan_Lane>	I tried to weed it down
[21:29:26] <RoanKattouw>	It's OK
[21:29:35] <Platonides>	some of them don't have http, or is a it works! page
[21:30:05] <Ryan_Lane>	if it's an "it works" page, it should stay in the list
[21:30:14] <Platonides>	why?
[21:30:14] <Ryan_Lane>	if it doesn't have http, it should be pulled
[21:30:27] <Ryan_Lane>	because it's running http
[21:30:41] <Platonides>	but nothing would have used it
[21:30:49] <Ryan_Lane>	some https servers are just misconfigured and left 000-default in
[21:30:57] <Ryan_Lane>	that doesn't mean they don't have something else on them
[21:31:38] <Platonides>	Is it ok if I copy the list to wikitech and try to reduce it a bit?
[21:33:23] <Platonides>	sigh, wikitech.wikimedia.org is sitll used an expired self-signed certificate
[21:34:10] <Reedy>	IIRC it still needs a separate cert buying for it
[21:34:20] <Platonides>	yes
[21:34:35] <Platonides>	Ryan_Lane talked about moving it: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27291#c12
[21:34:39] <Platonides>	to labs
[21:34:57] <Platonides>	although given that it is expected to be kept offsite always-up, I would keep it simple
[21:35:49] <Ryan_Lane>	you didn't correctly listen to our discussion, then ;)
[21:36:39] <Platonides>	which one?
[21:36:50] <Ryan_Lane>	the one in irc that led to me posting that
[21:36:57] <Platonides>	nope
[21:37:13] <Ryan_Lane>	we are likely to migrate the content, rename labsconsole to something else, and make a read-only mirror off-site
[21:37:25] <Ryan_Lane>	the read-only mirror would have monitoring
[21:37:42] <Ryan_Lane>	and the SAL log would be always off-site
[21:38:17] <Ryan_Lane>	we want/need ops documentation in the same wiki as labs
[21:38:29] <Ryan_Lane>	otherwise we'll be splitting our documentation
[21:38:56] <Ryan_Lane>	we can't easily give out accounts on wikitech, and we don't want to create accounts for people on both labsconsole and wikitech
[21:39:37] <Ryan_Lane>	the name is likely to change, too. so why bother buying a cert?
[22:11:38] <Krinkle>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Features_team/Notes/20111115
[22:23:20] <Platonides>	what's AFT?
[22:25:23] <Krinkle>	Article Feedback Tool
[22:25:26] <Krinkle>	[[mw:AFT]]
[22:26:36] <Platonides>	oh, right
[23:22:54] *Krinkle 	grins a little at Roan's humor: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Catrope/Extension_review/ShortUrl#populateSortUrlTable.php
[23:23:04] <Krinkle>	"you can't just select all rows from the page table in one query. Here's why:
[23:23:08] <Krinkle>	SELECT COUNT(*) FROM page; > 24849480