[10:18:23] <sumanah>	hi Ryan_Lane! morning. Hope you're doing well
[10:18:43] <brion>	sumanah: we're in philly airport
[10:18:45] <Ryan_Lane>	I am. still have another flight to go
[10:18:47] <brion>	it's phillylicious
[10:18:57] <sumanah>	brion: you mean cheesesteaks?
[10:19:03] <brion>	who knwos man it's 6am
[10:19:19] <sumanah>	I have jet lag and thus got up like 30 min ago East Coast time anyway
[10:19:23] <Ryan_Lane>	sumanah: ah. thanks for sending that email
[10:19:28] <brion>	heh
[10:19:36] <brion>	\o/ naaaawlins
[10:20:01] <sumanah>	Ryan_Lane: you are welcome!  I was like "crap, people should get this on their calendar, it is only 2 months away"
[10:20:10] <sumanah>	I shoulda done it a month ago -- argh
[10:20:13] <Ryan_Lane>	heh
[10:20:22] <Ryan_Lane>	well, we didn't have a date till a couple weeks ago
[10:20:25] <sumanah>	well, no use regretting, just do better next time, sumanah
[10:20:44] <Ryan_Lane>	and venue also wasn't fully confirmed
[10:20:48] <RoanKattouw>	The prep can hardly be more last-minute than the DC hackathon last year
[10:20:58] <Ryan_Lane>	yeah. this time we have a venue and a date
[10:21:05] <Ryan_Lane>	which is more than DC
[10:21:11] <sumanah>	RoanKattouw: since I was not there for that, I am going to assume I have impossibly high standards to live up to, and will beat myself up about it
[10:21:17] <Ryan_Lane>	:D
[10:21:18] <RoanKattouw>	This time last year I think we had a date
[10:21:20] <RoanKattouw>	But no confirmed venue
[10:21:26] <sumanah>	wait, wait, maybe that's not constructive
[10:21:39] <Ryan_Lane>	no one was told the date till like 2 weeks before
[10:21:51] *Ryan_Lane 	shrugs
[10:21:53] <Ryan_Lane>	doesn't matter
[10:21:55] <RoanKattouw>	I knew the date more than 2 weeks before
[10:21:58] <sumanah>	wow! uh ok, so this is better, glad to know.
[10:22:13] <RoanKattouw>	Late August / early Sept IIRC
[10:22:25] <Ryan_Lane>	this one will have slightly better information going out. It will continue to do so :)
[10:22:38] <Ryan_Lane>	I'm going to work on a list of people we need to have there this week
[10:22:41] <sumanah>	Ryan_Lane, brion - how long is your layover?
[10:22:44] <Ryan_Lane>	and call hotels and get rates
[10:22:47] <sumanah>	sweet
[10:22:49] <brion>	boarding in 1 hr
[10:22:55] <RoanKattouw>	~2 hrs?
[10:23:14] <RoanKattouw>	That'd be about reasonable for an international-to-domestic change at a US airport
[10:23:37] <Ryan_Lane>	yeah
[10:23:45] <Ryan_Lane>	total layover was around 2 hours
[10:23:51] <brion>	all through customs and crap just waiting for the flight now
[10:23:53] <brion>	wheeeeeeeeee
[10:23:54] <Ryan_Lane>	took a while to get through things, though it was short
[10:24:12] <brion>	airports should have a place where you can take a shower, and while you take a shower they speed-clean & dry your clothes so you can put them back on clean
[10:24:14] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah well, non-citizens need a bit more time on top of that, their immigration line is usually longer
[10:24:19] <brion>	instead of with a day of travel sweat all over ya
[10:24:20] <sumanah>	btw, speaking of hackathons, I am now told that the next WMDE hackathon may be in Vienna, Prague, Frankfurt, or someplace like that instead of Berlin
[10:24:29] <RoanKattouw>	Oh that'd be cool
[10:24:35] <RoanKattouw>	Frankfurt would be majorly more convenient travel-wise
[10:24:51] <brion>	frankfurt is in fact easier, since usually people fly thorugh frankfurt to reach berlin ;)
[10:24:55] <RoanKattouw>	FRA is one of those airport that was flights to/from everywhere
[10:24:56] <brion>	it's not as fun a town ytho
[10:25:03] <sumanah>	WE MAKE OUR OWN FUN
[10:25:10] <RoanKattouw>	I agree with brion
[10:25:13] <brion>	UPHILL THROUGH THE SNOW BOTH WAYS
[10:25:19] <RoanKattouw>	Going out in Gdansk was much more fun than going out in Haifa
[10:25:23] *sumanah 	laughs, but not too loud because then spouse will wake
[10:25:27] <RoanKattouw>	We make our own fun but the twon adds to it
[10:26:15] <brion>	it's all about 1) the local facilities for the stuff itself, 2) lodging that's in comfy walking distance, and 3) enough restaurants/bars/non-alcoholic amusements to let people bond in off-hours
[10:26:16] <sumanah>	da, da.
[10:26:30] <RoanKattouw>	You know, I would love to have a hackathon in London some time
[10:26:37] <RoanKattouw>	I've heard soft rumors about that once
[10:26:38] <sumanah>	I hear Prague is fun
[10:26:46] <brion>	london's expensive??? but a nice town. good transit
[10:27:00] <sumanah>	not as good as NYC, she said sniffily
[10:27:03] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah, it's expensive
[10:27:05] <brion>	prague generally gets good marks. harder to get to i think but i'm not sure the flights (vs frankfurt / berlin)
[10:27:16] <RoanKattouw>	Berlin and Prague shouldn't matter much
[10:27:17] <sumanah>	I live in NYC, I can fly most places direct :D
[10:27:20] <RoanKattouw>	In terms of flights
[10:27:35] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah, NYC and London are about equal in terms of having flights to everywhere
[16:43:34] <K4-713>	Hey, anybody want to talk to me about writing QUnit tests for extensions?
[16:44:00] <sumanah>	Krinkle: ^'
[16:44:16] <Krinkle>	K4-713: Yes ?
[16:46:23] <K4-713>	Hey Krinkle. So, I found this... but it's a little thin...
[16:46:24] <K4-713>	http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:JavaScript_unit_testing#How_to_write_a_QUnit_test_in_MediaWiki
[16:46:29] <Krinkle>	K4-713: Yes
[16:46:46] <Krinkle>	K4-713: We're in the middle of revamping our entire unit testing environment for javascript
[16:47:10] <sumanah>	hi Katie, btw http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Unit_testing might or might not be useful for you to read
[16:47:15] <Krinkle>	right now it's primitive, stable, but primitive. We've got a static html file in /mediawiki-core/tests/qunit/
[16:47:45] <Krinkle>	K4-713: What we're going to very soon is a Special:UnitTesting, you can register your test suites in a $wg and the rest goes automatically.
[16:48:10] <Krinkle>	As a matter of fact I'm writing that framework right now. I hope to fine-tune it over the weekend and commit on sunday.
[16:48:24] <K4-713>	Krinkle: That sounds cool.
[16:48:56] <Krinkle>	Right now there is no option for extensions to register tests, only for core. By having it more dynamic and in PHP it will be easier for us to maintain and ability for extensions and hooks to register test suites comes for free with it.
[16:49:24] <K4-713>	Ah! That would explain my difficulty in finding extensions with QUnit tests. :)
[16:50:16] <K4-713>	sumanah: I'm totally going to get all up in that link in a minute. And: Hello!
[16:50:31] <Krinkle>	There are some though, it's not impossible. What you can do is create a index.html file in /extensions/YourExtension/tests/qunit and give the <head> a <script> for jquery.js, mediawiki.js, jquery.qunit.js + your own modules
[16:51:43] <Krinkle>	that works but it's for 1) A pain to maintain (hey that rimes!), 2) Doesn't load them through resource loader which might give slightly different results and 3) executes them in a static file not in a real mediawiki environment (eg. no search bar, sidebar, wg* variables, and other mw scripts)
[16:52:29] <Krinkle>	??? which is exactly why we don't want it for core qunit tests either
[16:53:58] <K4-713>	Krinkle: Okay, cool. I think that was the lead I needed to get some traction on this. One more question, though: If I write some tests the current way, and then your new framework hits the scene, how hard is it going to be to move to the new  dynamic test registration?
[16:55:21] <Krinkle>	K4-713: Fairly simple, 1) remove the index.html file, 2) add two configurations to YourExtension.php (one to register the test suites with ResourceLoader, the other to let Special:UnitTesting know that they aren't ordinary modules but test suites that should be loaded and executed)
[16:56:02] <Krinkle>	Oh, and 3) set $wgEnableSpecialUnitTesting = true; to allow the tests to be run by anyone from the browser on [[Special:UnitTesting]] by default this is off in case there are tests that make edits through the API etc.
[16:56:58] <K4-713>	Krinkle: Fantastic. Thanks a ton.
[16:57:37] <Krinkle>	K4-713: You're welcome
[16:58:15] <sumanah>	Krinkle, K4-713 - I hereby make the obligatory "please update the documentation with this info" request :D
[16:58:51] <Krinkle>	sumanah: Yep, as soon as someone has reviewed by patch and the syntax is agreed on.
[16:59:26] <sumanah>	mais oui
[17:01:18] <K4-713>	sumanah: Totally. :)
[17:02:07] <K4-713>	sumanah: And, I'd like to add offhandedly that I'm pleased we're leaving Selenium.
[17:04:46] <Krinkle>	K4-713: Just to keep you up dated: We might not remove away from Selenium entirely. For unit testing and JavaScript module testing for sure, that's considered done. But for integration testing (ie. opening a browser to the main page, creating an account, logging in, changing preference "Add pages I edit to my wachlist" to 'on', upload a file and see if that file-page is watched)
[17:05:53] <Krinkle>	for that kind of testing (integration testing), Selenium isn't that bad. But surely if we can do without the ops-overhead of having to maintain the Selenium Grid while still having a somewhat easy to use integration testing format, we'll leave it entirely, but I haven't seen such thing yet.
[17:06:30] <K4-713>	Krinkle: Yeah, I've noticed that Selenium is also somewhat... let's say "erratic".
[17:07:05] <Krinkle>	The biggest downside is also the main advantage: It lives in the browser, not on the page so it can easily do things from page to page and report back to the mothership.
[17:07:20] <K4-713>	Right, totally.
[17:07:39] <nekudayims>	I'd like to remove selenium from core until we revisit it.
[17:07:51] <Krinkle>	Obvious downside being that it has to run in a controlled environment (ie. on a computer or VM owned by the test server (not any random person in the world)) and some browsers are not supported (such as mobile browsers)
[17:08:33] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: it doesn't hurt to have the files in SVN though. at least until we have a replacement (we don't have to actually run them, which we don't right now anyway)
[17:08:44] <Krinkle>	So far the proposed replacment
[17:09:06] <nekudayims>	It's cluttering up my svn co with ugly files
[17:09:12] *nekudayims 	didn't like how it was implemented
[17:09:19] <Krinkle>	So far the proposed replacement would be to write a JS-library that does all these things that keeps in touch with MW through ajax-requests which keeps it in the session. and an overall cookie to keep track of that.
[17:09:29] <K4-713>	Oooo.
[17:12:37] <Krinkle>	ie. var it = new mw.integrationTest(); it.addStep( function(){ it.openLink( '#login' ); }); it.addStep( function(){ it.focus( '#username' ); it.simulateTyping('John Doe'); it.click('#submit') });
[17:12:59] <Krinkle>	where every step is a group of tasks to execute while being on a page, the next step is done when the next page is loaded.
[17:13:17] <Krinkle>	on page 1 it does step 1, on page 2 it does step 2 etc.
[17:13:35] <nekudayims>	Krinkle: Something funky happened with FF 3.5 on the latest revision http://toolserver.org/~krinkle/testswarm/user/MediaWiki/
[17:13:48] <Krinkle>	pretty much what selenium does, except that it doesn't have to separate everything in steps as much
[17:15:43] <nekudayims>	And I think I killed your ts account again :p
[17:16:55] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: ^_^
[17:17:08] <Krinkle>	I've reset the revision
[17:19:31] <nekudayims>	Grrr, Chrome & FF3.5 died this time
[17:23:24] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: Chrome was fine, I'll explain later
[17:23:34] <Krinkle>	FF3.5 is having issues with UTF_8 it seems http://toolserver.org/~krinkle/testswarm/?state=runresults&run_id=3128&client_id=10282
[17:23:37] <Krinkle>	look at the <title>
[17:24:02] <nekudayims>	Ah ok
[17:24:44] <Krinkle>	Dunno what's going on there
[17:25:10] <Krinkle>	Maybe not set it in pt-BR language ?
[17:25:15] <Krinkle>	seems you've got a pt-BR FF 3.5
[17:37:56] <nekudayims>	That's not my 3.5, I only have 3.6 and above.
[17:38:04] <nekudayims>	I just noticed it failing. Maybe one of Brion's?
[17:38:16] <nekudayims>	No, his are all disconnected..hmm
[18:23:44] <nekudayims>	Krinkle-away: I moved up to 6th place ;-)
[18:27:45] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: Yeah, take the opportunity to catch up :D
[18:27:54] <nekudayims>	Since Brion's not connected ;-)
[18:28:21] <Reedy>	It's still rather browser biased
[18:28:47] <nekudayims>	I found a tool that lets me run IE6/7/8/9 all in the same program :p
[18:29:23] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: IE Tester, right ?
[18:29:33] <nekudayims>	Yeah
[18:29:38] <nekudayims>	That's really useful.
[18:30:00] <Krinkle>	I might banish that if I can figure out how. It appears to have some quirks that the real IE doesn't have. Both in good and bad ways.
[18:30:12] <Krinkle>	As long as it doesn't affect mw, it's fine though
[18:30:15] <Krinkle>	obscure cases.
[18:31:27] <Krinkle>	Gonna debug the weirdness in Safari 4 now. Hacking tool server live and letting it submit to your safari 4
[18:32:09] <Krinkle>	That's the nice thing about resetting a testswarm-job. I can just mess with the js files on the hard drive for that check out, and reset that revision
[18:32:16] <Krinkle>	then when I'm done revert changes and reset again :P
[18:32:23] <Krinkle>	without making a commit.
[18:33:03] <Krinkle>	Eventually I'd like to make an in-browser thingy for this though for TestSwarm, that'd be cool. A text area with freeform JS that's evaluated to whatever clients are connected right now.
[18:33:08] <Krinkle>	also evil at the same time.. muahha.
[18:35:11] <Reedy>	Krinkle, it seems to be triggering tests for Wikidom
[18:35:23] <Krinkle>	Are you sure ?
[18:35:35] <Reedy>	It just did a set of tests for r94368
[18:35:36] <Krinkle>	textSelection is in core.
[18:35:49] <Krinkle>	Or which do you mean
[18:36:02] <Reedy>	/trunk/parsers/wikidom/
[18:36:14] <Reedy>	or maybe not
[18:36:25] <Krinkle>	What's your url ?
[18:37:06] <Reedy>	or similar numbers look similar
[18:37:07] <Reedy>	meh
[18:39:00] <Krinkle>	Reedy: Are you running Debian/squeeze (2.30.6-1) Epiphany/2.30.6
[18:39:05] <Reedy>	Nope
[18:39:10] <Reedy>	i'm on windows 7 atm
[18:39:15] <Reedy>	Why no FF5?
[18:39:15] <Krinkle>	It's identifying itself as Safari 5/0
[18:39:27] <Reedy>	i have got safari open yeah
[18:39:31] <Krinkle>	Epiphany's user agent also contains Safari/Version 5.0
[18:39:53] <Krinkle>	$@$Q%Q)!% user agents
[18:40:13] <Krinkle>	http://webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/ fun read, sad realisation
[18:58:54] <Krinkle>	Reedy: Still got Safari 4 ?
[18:58:59] <Krinkle>	or nekudayims ?
[18:59:43] <Reedy>	i've got 5
[18:59:45] <nekudayims>	Lemme fire my vm back up
[19:10:32] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: one more time ? (or did it time out ?)
[19:11:44] <Krinkle>	Reedy: No FF5 because the TS-install is an ugly hack that hasn't been updated from github's master in a while and it's going to be until we re-do this on a wmf server.
[19:12:15] <Krinkle>	a million hardcoded patches to make 'it' do what it's doing now.
[19:12:22] <Krinkle>	Thx nekudayims
[19:12:27] <nekudayims>	Anytime.
[19:12:42] <Krinkle>	just Saf 4 is good
[19:23:59] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: One more time ? (bug is still there, it's being a bitch) - might as well leave it on until it's fixed.
[19:24:01] <Krinkle>	(saf 4)
[19:24:14] <nekudayims>	k
[19:25:13] <nekudayims>	I'll leave that one browser up until you've fixed it
[19:25:18] <Krinkle>	:)
[19:25:27] <nekudayims>	(I've been killing my browsers after finishing because I don't wanna keep crashing the TS)
[19:26:53] <Krinkle>	don't worry, it'll survive.
[19:27:29] <Krinkle>	it just makes ajax requests, the actual /run/ page will stay on so even if TS would burn to the ground, once it's back up within 5 second's it'll be pulling jobs again xD
[19:38:28] <Krinkle>	YES!
[19:41:16] <nekudayims>	Safari 4 still has 2 failures, but it looks like progress, yay
[19:48:13] <Krinkle>	nekudayims: see #mediawiki for what the problem was (it's trivial to fix the other 2)