[00:00:06] alveolar fricatives --> postalveolar fricatives [00:00:14] s -> sh, z -> ch [00:00:18] Ah that [00:00:24] erm, z -> j [00:00:34] I noticed it once after you said it [00:00:41] well, english j, not IPA j [00:00:41] But it's strange because we do in fact have those sounds [00:00:55] it's often phonotactics that cause those changes [00:01:03] i.e. where sounds are allowed to appear [00:01:06] Ah, right [00:01:14] German has a funny case of that [00:01:15] you may only have s and z in certain places in a word [00:01:29] /x/ can't appear at the start of a word in German [00:01:47] The classical example from germanic languages is that you can't put a voiced consonant at the end of a word. [00:01:48] So acht sounds like /axt/ but chemie sounds like shemie [00:01:49] RoanKattouw: ok, the only thing left is to deal with the purging and smaxage/maxage stuff for AFQ [00:01:54] Yeah you mentioned that [00:01:56] 'was' and all that [00:02:05] So you say "Haff you seen my foot (food)" [00:02:10] TrevorParscal: You rock [00:02:24] Yes, this is true for Dutch too [00:02:29] germanic languages :) [00:02:33] scandinavians, too [00:02:36] There is no spoken difference between word and wordt [00:02:37] dude, I found a jquery plugin that adds an appear event - sweetness [00:02:41] Nice [00:03:04] so, let's work on that tomorrow or on monday, should be simple [00:03:10] like for when something first shows up on screen? [00:03:19] friday i will be around, but maybe only for a half day - not sure still [00:03:22] brion: yes [00:03:26] spiff [00:03:32] if it's already on screen, it fires immediately [00:03:36] And we have all weird kinds of plurals and verbs where a singular that ends in a s can end in 'zen' as a plural [00:04:00] that way we don't hit the API once for each page view on all pages of English Wikipedia [00:04:12] better check my flight..... ok i fly out next wednesday evening [00:04:25] brion: Yeah that's typical I think [00:04:31] Arrive on Thu, conference starts on Fri [00:04:37] trevor's the early bird :D [00:04:42] Yeah [00:04:47] didn't get enough of berlin last year ;) [00:04:54] Well we won't be in Berlin until about 11pm on Thursday [00:04:56] trevor loved berlin last year [00:05:04] he got into all the local customs [00:05:04] brion: we are also making sure that unless the user is logged in or has rated before, we don't query the API for their ratings (which isn't really very cachable) but just ask for the ratings for the page (which is very cachable) [00:05:06] like timezones [00:05:06] (Although we pass through it the same morning at like 4am) [00:05:16] haha [00:05:28] TrevorParscal, +1 [00:05:31] brion: and we are going to auto-purge the API squids when a page is rated [00:05:36] like we do with articles :) [00:05:39] \o/ [00:05:42] From what I heard Trevor pretty much lived in Australia/Japan time last time in Berlin, right? :) [00:05:45] that's how we roll at wmf [00:06:00] no, he lived on SF time [00:06:06] I remember him coming down to breaky for dinner [00:06:09] we've never really rolled something out with this level of personalization for anonymous users on all pages - it's a learning experience [00:06:28] learning experience, disaster. same thing [00:06:29] Right, was doing the math the wrong way then [00:06:38] RoanKattouw: I don't really remember, I was coding pretty much nonstop [00:06:52] I mostly remember being up and ready to go while others were winding down [00:07:07] and the sound of the aquarium channel on the TV [00:07:11] See this is what I like on a schedule: [00:07:13] 10:00am Maintainable API Docs & Other Rainbow-Colored Unicorns Clay Loveless (Mashery [00:07:14] ahahaha [00:07:20] I remember that aquarium [00:07:34] Meh I missed out on so much not being stuck in Berlin [00:07:50] I think trevor would have traded places [00:07:50] Glad I did the responsible thing by going home and working hard to not fail a project [00:07:55] Probably [00:07:58] You missed ^demon|coderevie partying until his flight [00:08:02] He has a family and all [00:08:12] the final hotel we ended up in had TVs in each room, and when you keyed your card in to turn the lights on, the tv would come on and switch to the aquarium channel [00:08:15] and running into danese in the hotel lobby [00:08:16] \o/ [00:08:47] which was a 10 min loop of topical fish swimming in a bright aqua blue aquarium, with some ambient music [00:09:13] trevor was in his happy place [00:09:34] i just wanted to be home with my kids - but without that being possible, I just wrote software and wondered around berlin aimlessly [00:10:07] Yeah I had no kids to go home to, just a boring uni project [00:12:38] speaking of kidlets... I need to help the wife [00:12:49] cyall later, or tomorrow, whichever comes first [00:12:52] The Wife [00:12:54] catch you later [00:14:26] <^demon|coderevie> werdna: That was funny, arriving back at ~4:30 when I had to leave at ~6. [00:14:36] <^demon|coderevie> And danese was in the lobby. [00:15:39] ^demon|coderevie: you're beaten by Ryan [00:15:58] eh? [00:16:22] Ryan_Lane: in the "partying until a flight" stakes [00:16:27] heh [00:16:31] that's very true [00:16:37] <^demon|coderevie> I also remember asking you to buy me a drink with vodka in it, and you came back with a vodka tonic. [00:16:42] unless you actually miss your flight it's going to be hard to beat me [00:16:58] <^demon|coderevie> To which I replied: "Of all the vodka drinks you could've gotten me, you bought me my least favorite" [00:17:03] lol [00:17:06] haha seriously? [00:17:08] when was that? [00:17:15] <^demon|coderevie> Tressor w/ Ryan. [00:17:28] if you cared you should have specified :) [00:18:14] <^demon|coderevie> Anything w/ tonic water is nasty :) [00:18:21] gin! [00:18:24] I mostly drink gin, so... [00:18:28] yeah gin and tonic is good [00:18:37] mmm, tanqueray no. 10 [00:19:13] 700mL is $76 ($80 USD) over here, 1L is 23 quid duty free on BA [00:21:12] where was tressor, ^demon|coderevie? [00:21:31] <^demon|coderevie> I can't remember, tbh. [00:21:32] didn't you come with us? [00:21:37] it was a warehouse [00:21:57] all the bars we went to blur into one [00:21:59] oh is that that massive club [00:22:04] tomasz was there too? [00:22:12] <^demon|coderevie> Postfach 36 04 28 [00:22:18] some girl tried to turn Ryan_Lane gay? [00:22:29] Wait, what?!? [00:22:36] agreed, what? [00:22:37] A *girl* tried to turn him gay? [00:22:46] pushed him onto her friend [00:22:51] that dutch girl I met on the stage [00:22:51] ahhhhh [00:22:51] right [00:22:58] <^demon|coderevie> Ahaha, I remember that now [00:23:05] is that the place? [00:23:05] <^demon|coderevie> (most of that night was a blur) [00:23:13] yeah. that's the place [00:23:16] hahaha [00:23:22] I never knew that was the name of it [00:24:04] <^demon|coderevie> www.tresorberlin.com [00:24:52] that's the place [01:45:16] Wow. I've been around the world and experienced many, MANY things. But never, ever a girl trying to turn me gay. [01:45:33] So, uh. Goodonye? Or something. [01:45:38] Tell yer grandkids. [05:47:17] how come deletion logs on enwiki now contain a "box" character after the pagename? [05:47:23] I'm using chrome, btw [05:50:23] Withoutaname: its a U+200E character [05:50:29] which is a right to left mark [05:50:35] is it a bug? [05:50:39] someone probably added it to a mediawiki message [05:50:53] a chrome bug maybe [05:51:08] when i said right to left mark, I meant to say left to right [05:51:10] we put LRM/RLM everywhere [05:51:32] they're necessary to display bidirectional text correctly [05:52:02] I'm going to check if it appears in IE [05:53:00] nope, it's a chrome bug, I think [05:53:34] Withoutaname: note, it doesn't appear in chrome for me [05:53:44] I have a really old version of chrome though [05:53:46] do you have WinXP? [05:53:52] linux [05:55:26] chrome 11.0 [05:55:44] hmm, but on chrome it does seem to make the lrm be one space wide instead of being a totally invisible character, which is wrong [08:14:52] Does anyone know what the "dashboard" is in Article Feedback 3.0 please? [16:28:15] howief have you heard of ArticleFeedback ? [16:28:17] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/05/have-you-heard-of-articlefeedback.html [16:28:58] hey GerardM- [16:29:05] yes, i've heard of article feedback :) [16:29:26] I thought as much ... I came across it by accident ... [16:29:54] we've been experimenting with it on a limited number of articles for the past few months [16:30:22] :) [16:30:40] I like the idea, it has potential [16:30:42] i think your point on the criteria is a good one [16:30:57] i actually think they may change as we learn more about how readers interact with the feature [16:31:31] you also only get answers to the questions you ask [16:31:37] yup [16:32:32] the questions asked often say a lot about the questioner :) [16:32:43] yes [16:33:18] i think this is going through many iterations [16:33:28] That is a good thing ... [16:33:40] this feature is targeted at readers [16:33:52] so we want something that readers can easily understand and engage with [16:33:56] at the same time [16:34:03] the ratings should provide some meaningful feedback [16:34:07] Ah, howief , hi. Quick question for you: what's the dashboard, exactly? I couldn't find any description or documentation about it but we mention it in the upcoming engineering report. [16:34:10] ... but the answers may determine editorial policy [16:34:27] how do you mean? [16:34:48] when people dislike some holy grail feeling of us ... [16:34:58] it could / should have us reflect [16:35:05] guillom: it's in the google doc we've been using -- let me see if you're on it [16:35:14] howief, thanks! [16:35:31] I went through the docs I could access, but couldn't find it. Maybe I missed it. [16:35:56] I for instance want us to do more and better on illustrations [16:36:09] have our articles be less wordy [16:36:10] guillom: i just added you to the doc. sorry about that! [16:36:37] GerardM-: it would be interesting to see if that sentiment is shared by our readers [16:36:51] howief, no problem. Thanks! In the future, I'll try to set up a process so that all these documents are eventually posted publicly. [16:36:53] Hoi alolita1 we are discussing ArticleFeedback ... http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/05/have-you-heard-of-articlefeedback.html [16:36:57] the trick is that there are so many different perspectives out there to capture [16:37:08] some readers may want illustrations [16:37:20] others may want more succinctness [16:37:22] GerardM: hi [16:37:28] others don't mind verbosity, etc. [16:37:53] yes but Wikipedia articles are for a mass audience [16:37:59] the challenge is to capture the input in meaningful way [16:38:19] that requires meaningful diverse questions [16:38:42] yes, but that needs to be balanced against the need for an easy to understand interface [16:39:07] e.g., we don't want a rating tool with 100 categories :) [16:39:13] the questions do not have to be the same all the time [16:39:32] nor do they have to be the same for every article [16:39:35] we use computers [16:39:46] but we need to walk before we run :) [16:40:00] that is why I think it is a great development [16:40:15] guillom: has been working on some ideas for the long-term vision for the feature which I think are very interesting [16:40:15] it has potential [16:40:30] i think so too [16:40:54] If i may read such a document, it will be food for a next blog post [16:40:59] continual iteration on this feature will be key [16:41:34] here it is (guillom i hope you don't mind): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Extended_review [16:41:47] I don't! [16:42:00] it has to get into the DNA of Wikipedia that we are interested in metrics on our articles [16:42:03] Erik is planning to mention it in the next AFT blog post. [16:42:10] AFT ? [16:42:15] article feedback tool [16:43:28] yuvipanda: ping [17:07:55] trevor, krinkle, roan, awjr: we 're starting our aft standup - pl join in :-) [17:09:08] I'm here [17:09:14] In 2003 [19:00:32] sumanah: any comments about the bugtriage bugs? [19:00:37] er [19:00:47] hi hexmode -- bugsmash? [19:00:48] I mean bugsmash [19:00:53] yes [19:01:04] Nikerabbit asked me to add some search ones [19:03:06] hexmode: I shall review the 31 bugsmash bugs, then [19:03:14] kk [19:03:41] hexmode: my main concern is just that each of them is fairly well-defined, has good repro steps, etc [19:04:03] k, will double check [19:04:34] I put some feature req's in there, too [19:04:42] <^demon> "self-contained" is another good feature for bugsmash bugs. [19:05:17] <^demon> You don't want projects, you want small things that people can do in < 1 day [19:05:19] <^demon> :) [19:13:31] hexmode: what proportion of these have you verified are still happening in 1.17? [19:13:53] hexmode: either we should verify them ahead of Berlin, or we should add a bunch more for a veryify-fest [19:16:00] sumanah: ok: so verify them and make sure they're self-contained, short [19:16:28] hexmode: I think it's ok to NOT verify them, as long as we then have more like.... 80 in the pile [19:16:37] heh [19:16:38] <^demon> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&list_id=5458&component=Installation&resolution=---&resolution=LATER&product=MediaWiki - installer ones, if anyone's interested. [19:16:49] hexmode: to make up for the ones that we'll close as Cannot Repro [19:17:00] sure [19:37:10] <^demon> sumanah: bug 19991 is probably a good one for bugsmash. [19:37:13] <^demon> Very easy, too. [19:37:37] ^demon: yay. [19:38:07] <^demon> And unless hexmode wants to work on it, I wouldn't suggest cli installer bugs for it at all. [19:38:12] <^demon> Lot of kinks to work out :) [19:38:49] ^demon: understood, and if you think I've tagged any bugs in error, feel free to remove the tags [19:40:41] *RoanKattouw ambushes ^demon [19:40:47] *^demon hides [19:40:53] <^demon> What's up? :) [19:41:03] So did you see the Suhosin max GET string length bug? [19:41:23] <^demon> Yep. Did I see a fix go by in svn? [19:41:39] A couple [19:41:42] It was three things [19:41:51] 1) Shorten URLs so the bug is less likely to manifest itself [19:42:04] 2) Add a config var to automatically break stuff up [19:42:22] 3) Add an install-time check that sets that config var in the generated LocalSettings.php if the Suhosin thing is set [19:42:34] So #3 is all set for fresh installs, but what about upgradeS? [19:43:20] <^demon> The installer won't let you regenerate localsettings if it's still in place (potential data leakage) [19:43:48] <^demon> Hmm, you could possibly do it at the point where we generate and append $wgUpgradeKey if one doesn't exist. [19:43:59] (How is there data leakage BT?W) [19:44:09] Is it because anyone can run the installer? [19:45:56] <^demon> Yep. [19:45:58] RoanKattouw: it still has the ugly percent-encoded | though :o [19:46:14] Nikerabbit: Yes, and the commas are also percent-encoded [19:46:22] noo [19:46:29] (They are for me) [19:46:34] <^demon> Anyway, my car's done at the shop so I need to run and grab that now. I'll poke your commits in a bit, Roan. [19:46:40] Alright [19:47:02] ^demon|away: I'm just looking for generic advice for how to handle this for upgrading users, I'm not married to any specific approach [19:47:20] bummer, you're right [20:28:26] Weird economy. 900 USD == 600 EUR. However an iMac costs 900 EUR in Europe yet also 900 USD in the US. [20:28:51] Nasty americans, profiting off the Europeans :P [20:30:12] <^demon|away> That's a low-end iMac. [20:30:34] ^demon: Same goes for many US products. [20:32:18] $ 2,500 MacBook Pro is the same as the ??? 2,500 MacBook Pro; that's 780 pure profit. [20:33:04] (calcuated from ???1.720 being $2.5k) [20:33:15] anyway, moving on :) [20:34:43] lol [20:34:48] More pure profit than that [20:39:00] hehe [20:50:19] Krinkle: Yes, dollar and euro prices for Mac products are eerily equal [20:50:49] <^demon> I told Sam about my vps host before, they do the same thing. [20:50:55] If and when we fly you out to SF you should probably hit up the Apple Store and see what you can get for EUR 438 (or whatever the number is) :) [20:51:17] <^demon> $1 = ??1 :p [20:51:37] <^demon> Their excuse is "It's too hard to calculate fair exchange rates per-day, so we just set a flat rate" [20:51:55] Student discount ftw [20:52:30] Basic iMac is 999 sterling [20:52:39] <^demon> Too bad no Japanese companies do the same thing, or I'd buy everything from Japan. [20:53:01] <^demon> $1 = ??1 would be great :) [20:53:29] Hmm, ?999 = 1126 euro [20:53:34] Rip off britain [20:53:38] YET AGAIN [21:09:17] brion: thanks for the note [21:11:17] RoanKattouw: Yeah definilty will atleast peek in the Mac store if I'm in SF. Even if it was just for the view. [21:11:32] Not sure about import to EU though, throw away packaging ? [21:11:58] It's legal up to 438 euros or something like that [21:12:03] ah, right. [21:12:10] Above that, yes, throw away the packaging ;) [21:12:21] No,I'd never throw away the packaging. [21:12:33] Or risk it [21:12:34] I want to keep that as a memory. [21:12:41] To how risky it was :P [21:12:47] <^demon> RoanKattouw: Your patch for installation looks fine. I'll need to poke it some more to make it work on upgrade. [21:12:52] If you've ever flown back into AMS you know our Customs is a joke [21:13:37] Yeah, I remember something about Hans Klok pulling a joke there once too. [21:13:42] Is it not how ours is? [21:13:49] "Nothing to declare" or "Something to declare" [21:15:53] Just don't look shifty [21:16:22] Don't wear Wikimedia Hackathon t-shirts openly either xD [21:16:48] why not ? [21:16:49] *Reedy goes to buy a wikileaks t-shirt [21:28:19] Reedy: Yeah, exactly. I once went through the Nothing to Declare line and there wasn't even anyone /there/ [21:28:27] Normally there's two customs officers giving you stern looks [21:31:19] GerardM-: It's fine, I was joking, related the whether or not imporation of computer hardware. When wearing tech-suites and brand new ipods and laptops in the open, prolly not a good idea :D [21:46:51] this computer I am on I imported from the USA [21:47:22] Same here [21:51:42] Contraversial [21:51:46] Everything comes from china anyway [21:53:57] *sumanah writes to wikitech-l about bugsmash list -- https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=bugsmash&list_id=5492 [21:54:25] Someone needs to find brion a bug that should've been fixed a long time ago that he can deal with at 3am while drunk [21:54:43] That reminds me [21:54:44] <^demon> Those are the best bugs. [21:54:51] Need to ask Daniel if he's got an attendance list [21:54:55] <^demon> "GET A NEW HOST! SERIOUSLY!!" [21:55:05] Reedy: I can tell you who from WMF is attending [21:55:07] Just wondering who else is going to be there... [21:55:12] I was more wondering volunteers [21:55:16] Reedy: but I don't know about non-.... yeah [21:55:39] I know most of the WMF list anyway [21:56:23] <^demon> I'm going to miss doner kebabs :( [21:56:25] <^demon> At 2am. [21:56:33] And at lunchtime [21:56:53] <^demon> And breakfast? [21:56:59] ^demon: Wait, so are you not coming to Berlin at all? [21:57:08] ^demon: Don't be silly. Breakfast is when you sleep [21:57:10] <^demon> That's what I was telling you yesterday... [21:57:15] Reedy: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1965 [21:57:25] As opposed to going to berlin and then not attending the hack a thon? [21:57:34] Oh I thought you just weren't gonna be at the staff part [21:57:44] Didn't realize you weren't gonna be at the hackathon either [21:57:49] *RoanKattouw is a sad panda now [21:57:51] <^demon> Nooooo. (And I was pretty sure that was staff + contractors) [21:58:01] Nope, not all contractors apparently [21:58:11] I have to go do shitty exams [21:58:14] sumanah, too simple [21:58:16] <^demon> In any case, I've got too much stuff going on here at home. [21:58:40] <^demon> Reedy: That ini bug should be pretty easy :) [21:59:01] awjr, ping? [21:59:07] hi yuvipanda [21:59:08] sumanah, https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14473 was last years candidate [21:59:11] awjr, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Yuvipanda/GSoC/PoC [21:59:19] awjr, PoC draft. take a look + comments? [21:59:27] Ah yes [21:59:38] That was the Brion-got-stuck-in-Berlin-and-picked-up-MW-hacking-again bug [21:59:43] heh [21:59:48] Reedy: I'm looking at 674 & 234 [21:59:49] <^demon> I remember that. Everyone went to bed rather intoxicated, and we woke up the next morning with languagelink tracking [22:00:13] *yuvipanda tries to figure out when he's going to be intoxicated next, and comes to no conclusion at all [22:01:02] the volcano also led to Scott James Remnant leaving Canonical [ http://netsplit.com/2011/01/11/leaving-canonical/ ] [22:01:03] hahhaa [22:01:17] <^demon> 4125 is a good one [22:03:10] ^demon, Reedy, if you're serious at all, please tag [22:06:18] !b 4125 [22:06:18] --elephant-- https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4125 [22:08:24] sumanah: The story of how he fell in love with SF and working in an office is very recognizable for me :) [22:08:42] "and working in an office" [22:08:47] High aspirations there. [22:09:02] It's more productive than working from home :) [22:09:11] In some cases [22:09:17] I've been doing it for at least 8 years now [22:09:29] I'm not sure if an office would really be my preferred place of work [22:11:15] I do seem to recall you spending a /lot/ of time there the last time I saw you there ;) [22:12:19] When I go to work with my dad, it only ends up being 10 hours [22:12:27] as I have to go home when he leaves