[00:17:37] jorm: did you still want to chat? [00:18:51] uhm, sure. [00:19:07] i didn't have much; just wanted to know which branch i should pull to start goofing around. [00:19:31] oh, I didn't need anything, it's just that I ran away on you last night for the sake of my sanity, thought I'd check if you need anything [00:20:06] nope. i'm in tradetrack and pending changes land right now. [00:20:25] yay! [00:21:45] i'm having fun with tradetrack. [00:21:54] it's pretty much my "learn mediawiki" project. [00:22:17] so i'm overdoing it; i could have been done last week, probably, but now i'm all into the "okay, let's learn this, and then this, and then this..." [00:22:57] like, it *clearly* doesn't require an api module. but i want to make one anyway. [00:24:25] yeah, mediawiki is addictive like that [00:26:10] <^demon> Just don't saying "Oh I should rewrite this bit..." [00:26:14] <^demon> You'll get sucked in ;-) [00:26:45] i've already rewritten huge sections of it three times, once i see better ways to do things. [03:19:37] If I link to http://eiximenis.wikimedia.org in a mailing list post, is it going to cause a problem? [03:24:47] I'll err on the side of caution, I guess. [03:43:07] I posted to wikitech-l. Hide the children. [04:03:15] robla: I wrote you an e-mail. [04:04:21] Ashlee: I responded to your email [04:04:26] :D [04:04:31] Aye, just read. [04:04:37] Is anything being moved currently? [04:04:52] the selenium meetings are every meeting [04:05:05] well, I phrased that poorly, but you know what I mean [04:05:14] Hmm, so I guess question 2: where are these going if not under [[mw:Meetings]].... [04:05:55] I just cleaned up that page. If there are meeting notes elsewhere, I'd like to centralize and organize. :-) [04:06:13] Well, _I_ wouldn't like to. But I might during my copious free time. [04:06:19] Ashlee: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Selenium/Deployment#Status_updates_and_notes [04:06:26] !fixit [04:06:26] --elephant-- I don't know anything about "fixit". [04:06:35] oh. no real bot in here :) [04:06:47] Heh. [04:07:09] those are bi-weekly meetings [04:07:10] Thanks for the link. I'll take a look at that tomorrow, hopefully. Shouldn't be too hard to move those pages and update a few links. [04:07:28] we have IRC meetings the other fridays [04:08:07] I was actually kind of hoping you'd reply about the ops side a bit. [04:08:07] Ashlee: let robla know how you are changing it, so that he knows how things are organized [04:08:15] ;) [04:08:16] K. [04:08:53] ops doesn't necessarily need to post everything as much as the devs, since we currently don't have volunteers that aren't already in the loop somehow [04:09:02] not saying we shouldn't strive to [04:09:13] *robla is reading here...just getting caught up [04:09:14] Well, Rob made it section 1 on his draft. [04:09:27] and the ticket tracking system we use has confidential info in it [04:09:37] so it is difficult to open that up [04:09:46] But I realize that there are about three people who can do it properly, and they have other things to do. [04:09:54] we are tracking things via the ticketing system [04:09:59] Aye. [04:10:10] not saying an update here and there wouldn't be nice ;) [04:10:15] But it's about you, Mark, and RobH who could update those sections. [04:10:18] *Ashlee nods. [04:10:34] we are hiring more people, and I have plans to get volunteers in as well [04:10:53] Heh, every random person who shows up in #wikimedia-tech gets a shell account? ;-) [04:10:56] no reason we can't have volunteers in ops, just need to have things set up properly for it [04:11:06] We used to have people pop in to -tech sometimes and ask for root... [04:11:21] established community members who can prove they aren't going to break things? sure [04:11:41] and we can give them tasks to allow them to prove themselves [04:11:43] Personally, I'd like to see more shell users who could do configuration changes (or a proper configuration system) than random volunteers playing on a VM. [04:12:00] people playing on a VM is more helpful [04:12:13] Not to the people waiting two years for a namespace change that's a single line. [04:12:27] JeLuF does the bulk of these, but he's one man. [04:12:28] those people are waiting cause we are too busy ;) [04:12:30] And he gets busy. [04:12:38] robh also does them [04:12:50] He has, sure. [04:13:03] if we had more volunteers to help with sys admin stuff, we'd have more time for site requests too [04:13:25] Hmm, I doubt it. :-) I think if you had more sysadmin volunteers, you'd find there would be more sysadmin work. [04:13:44] making config changes is one of the easiest ways to take down the site, so it is a difficult thing to give away :) [04:13:50] And, it doesn't require a sysadmin to make a lot of these changes. It's just the nature of MW config. Really, stewards could do it... [04:14:05] Yes. [04:14:06] That's fair. [04:14:09] it depends on the config change [04:14:16] Well, one missing comma... [04:14:20] I see what you're saying. [04:14:21] some have major performance implications [04:14:47] even if we had a sane config system, some config settings are problematic [04:15:01] otherwise, I agree with you [04:15:13] I spoke with Roan about some of this. Specific to Bugzilla requests, some extensions truly ought to be opt-out, not opt-in. [04:15:18] I think that is something we should focus on from volunteers as well [04:15:28] That would save a good chunk of community time and sysadmin time. [04:15:45] like which ones? [04:15:47] Every stupid Wikinews has to separately request DPL being installed, for example. It makes no sense. [04:15:55] ah [04:16:12] AbuseFilter is another example. [04:16:17] DPL has performance issues associated with it :) [04:16:39] not familiar with the story behind abusefilter [04:16:43] So disable it on the ten big sites and enable it on the rest. :-) [04:16:53] AbuseFilter was made opt-in too. [04:17:24] I know what abusefilter does, but otherwise don't know any background on its configuration status [04:18:11] I'm sure there are other examples. But you get the general idea. [04:18:17] yeah [04:20:01] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22250 [04:20:09] That kind of bug just frustrates and annoys me. [04:20:49] Why? cause it is 8 months old? [04:20:58] Yes. [04:21:09] Though the French Wikisource is surprisingly kind of large. [04:21:35] http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques?uselang=en How do they have over 600,000 pages.... [04:21:49] http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:Statistiques?uselang=en [04:21:58] well, there aren't any objections listed. it probably isn't being bitched about enough [04:22:23] I'm fairly sure DPL is pretty integral to the development of a healthy Wikisource. [04:22:50] The process doesn't need improvement, really, it just needs to be eliminated. [04:25:21] The English Wiktionary has DPL installed and has over 2 million pages... [04:26:28] Ashlee: would you prefer I respond on-list or here to your wikitech-l mail? [04:26:58] robla: On-list, please. And there's no rush. I realize it's not working hours. :-) [04:27:32] it's hard to get anything done during working hours :) [04:27:38] Heh. [04:28:31] Oh my. My post got called constructive. :-/ [04:28:44] you're losing your touch ;-) [04:28:58] I was about to firebomb foundation-l, so maybe that'll balance things out. [04:29:20] *robla braces for impact [04:36:11] Ashlee: You post was actually not-trollish this time ;) [04:36:24] proper tact can go a long way [15:03:51] RoanKattouw: do you know anything about the search backend in wmf? [15:04:45] Bits [15:04:51] What do you want to know? [15:12:44] RoanKattouw: a lot [15:12:47] but not now [15:13:13] I might do my thesis about related to improving the search [17:55:48] i wish google contacts didn't suck so bad. [18:20:33] RoanKattouw: the API doesn't use output page right? [18:20:56] Not supposed to, no [18:21:05] Why the heck would it [18:21:17] well, it is MediaWiki [18:21:35] more ridiculous things have happened [18:21:51] hah [18:22:00] or, a better question, I'm turning ResourceLoader into an instantiable object, rather than a static one... OutputPage::makeResoruceLoaderLink uses ResourceLoader [18:22:47] which indicates to me that if ResourceLoader is an instantiable object, that OutputPage should intantiate one as a protected member [18:23:12] Yes [18:23:12] as opposed to adding a global $wgResourceLoader, which would make people cry [18:23:16] YES [18:23:28] *RoanKattouw slaps TrevorParscal for even considering that :) [18:23:51] I wasn't considering it, that's just how MediaWiki would normally be done [18:23:59] I'm thinking about just doing this on the __construct method of OutputPage [18:24:04] is there a better place to do it? [18:24:20] should I do it automatically within the makeResoruceLoaderLink function? [18:24:40] I'm trying to avoid ever instantiating ResourceLoader and then not using it [18:24:59] Is there any cost to instantiating ResourceLoader at all? [18:25:10] Does ResourceLoader have a non-small number of member vars? [18:25:26] Hm I guess at the very least it would defer loading of ResourceLoader.php [18:25:37] So lazy-loading it might be a good idea, yeah [18:28:47] well, instantiating ResourceLoader would mean registering modules [18:29:09] I will lazy load [18:29:18] Not if RL lazy-loads its stuff [18:32:02] are you wfh today, trevor? [18:32:16] only for the first half [18:32:33] RoanKattouw: that could work too I guess [18:32:42] but that doesn't lazy load ResoruceLoader.php as well [18:32:51] I AM COUNTING ON YOU TO PURCHASE MY LUNCH [18:33:02] True [18:34:24] dumb question, in PHP 5, you don't need to add & to an argument which will come through as an object for it to be a reference, right? On either the function defintion or the calling side? [18:34:40] <^demon> definition. [18:34:51] <^demon> call-time pass-by-ref was deprecated with 5.3 [18:35:15] meaining I still need the & when calling for MediaWiki [18:35:34] but not in the function signature? [18:35:55] our hook documentation tell you to put it in the function definition... but that seems out of date [18:44:05] Only put the & in the function definition, not in the function call [19:07:33] jorm: I got your lunch on lock! but I might not be there for a bit still [19:08:13] hook me up tomorrow. s'all good. [20:11:02] Here's a suggestion, I don't know if this is the right place but anyway. It seems like the png images that are created from svg in the wikimedia projects are unoptimized and could be optimized if they are crushed with pngcrush after creation. [20:11:18] This could save quite a bit of bandwidth [20:12:05] adam_miller, i think you might have broken messages on AA [20:12:16] [articleassessment-yourfeedback] is displaying etc [20:13:19] Reedy: not seeing it... [20:13:29] is this on en.wikipedia? [20:13:34] nope, svn head [20:13:48] i haven't touched the messages [20:14:40] hmm but it looks like someone else did [20:15:21] TW will have exported the i18n's [20:16:18] is this an error in the messages file or in the generator? [20:16:32] JS, i'd guess [20:16:35] Reedy: are you referring to '<prefswitch-survey-false>' and '<prefswitch-survey-true>? [20:16:41] heh. turkish has only 2 translated messages. [20:16:44] that's the only weirdness i'm seeing locally [20:16:46] All the messages are showing as what I presume are placeholders [20:17:10] if they show up as then they're not getting wfMsg()'d [20:17:21] (i ALWAYS read that as "wtfMsg()") [20:18:22] might be something with your local setup, it's working fine for me save two messages in the survey [20:18:34] <^demon> jorm: wf really means Wikipedia Function ;-) [20:18:45] <^demon> I think we say it means "wiki function" now [20:18:47] is anyone else having problems with none of the strings being loaded? [20:19:22] http://toolserver.org/~reedy/ohnoes.png [20:19:29] they're loading for me. [20:19:38] neat!~ [20:19:44] shfit-reload, reedy? [20:19:53] nope [20:20:56] are you seeing any errors in the js console? [20:21:44] Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected token < [20:21:44] Main_Page:244Uncaught ReferenceError: $j is not defined [20:21:58] try again [20:21:58] Main_Page:244Uncaught ReferenceError: $j is not defined [20:22:03] BAHHH [20:22:18] /w/load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=mediawiki.legacy.ajax%7Cmediawiki.legacy.ajaxwatch%7Cmediawiki.legacy.wikibits&skin=vector&version=2010-09-29T20%3A10%3A04Z:1Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected token < [20:22:32] lol RL [20:23:11] Reedy: What's at that URL? [20:23:15] I'm sure it was working before [20:24:31] Fatal error: Using $this when not in object context in /home/reedy/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/ResourceLoader.php on line 225
[20:24:37] Why is my clipboard being so arsey? [20:25:29] Didn't Trevor just change something about staticness of the RL? [20:25:33] *RoanKattouw thinks this is probably Trevor's fault [20:25:35] Yeah [20:25:53] jorm: Is Trevor in the office yet? [20:26:04] When he gets in, please tell him that he broke RL ;) [20:27:24] line 255 is a } for me.. [20:27:50] *Reedy waits for the vm to svn up [20:28:13] 225, not 255 [20:28:30] return isset( $this->modules[$name] ) ? $this->modules[$name] : null; [20:28:33] Functions not static [20:28:45] Statically called perhaps? [20:29:43] $module = ResourceLoader::getModule( $row->mr_resource );. [20:30:06] 324 of MessageBlobStore.php [20:30:11] Let me guess, MessageBlobStore [20:30:13] Ah yes [20:32:02] RoanKattouw, marked the rev as fixme [20:33:12] OK [21:02:26] trevor is in office. i'll point him at you. [21:03:15] jorm, i marked it fixme, so he can work from there ;) [21:05:39] TrevorParscal: Your recent commit making RL non-static neglected to update a caller in MessageBlobStore, causing fatal errors in JS output [21:06:21] ? [21:06:28] I updated MessageBlobStore [21:06:52] Reedy: says he's seeing a static call from MBS.php [21:06:56] ResourceLoader::getModule() [21:07:09] let me check, i might have missed one [21:07:24] nope [21:07:40] there's no such call in MessageBlobStore.php [21:08:24] Reedy: Back in your court then [21:08:41] http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/MessageBlobStore.php?view=markup [21:08:59] wait [21:09:03] foreach ( $res as $row ) { [21:09:03] $module = ResourceLoader::getModule( $row->mr_resource ); [21:09:05] my grep failed me [21:09:07] I see it now [21:09:10] strange [21:09:25] ok, awesome, going to fix this quickly now [21:09:27] thanks for finding it Reedy [21:10:01] grr [21:10:10] ok, I will have to get clever here.. [21:11:17] Np [21:14:11] RoanKattouw: now that its not a static object, I was hoping you and I could do an architectural audit before it's too late [21:14:17] and before I write the unit tests [21:14:42] OK [21:14:49] But not now [21:14:49] when would you have time? [21:14:53] understood [21:14:57] I'm hoping to schedule something [21:15:08] Tomorrow morning, until 11:15ish [21:15:18] Or Friday any time [21:16:04] lets do tomorrow morning from 10 - 11 [21:16:11] OK [21:16:15] Can you GCal it? [21:16:20] already there [21:17:55] OK thanks [21:18:00] Off to bed now [21:18:36] Purged and looks good TrevorParscal :) [21:18:44] Reedy: awesome [21:19:15] Can I get any usability advise on GeoHack? I'd like to improve the en page (considering scraping it) and I did the redesign of the DE page [21:19:17] http://toolserver.org/~geohack/en/37.883333_N_-4.766667_E [21:19:18] http://toolserver.org/~geohack/de/37.883333_N_-4.766667_E [21:19:20] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:GeoTemplate#Featuring_proprietary_content <- button idea [21:20:08] what are you looking to change? [21:20:20] don't use that pink color, def. [21:20:47] its hard to find anything and 60% of the people simply use Google Maps anyway [21:21:04] i like your three buttons but you have to modify them. [21:21:28] i can tell you there isn't enough padding between the Google mark and the words "Maps, Satellite, Terrain" [21:21:29] why? They're text, so can't be copyrighted [21:21:32] they'll get snippy about it. [21:21:39] the mark absolutely is. [21:22:19] i don't know that anyone will actually issue trademark notices or anything, but it's best to be prepared. [21:22:25] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Google_maps_logo.png [21:22:36] yeah, that's fine. [21:22:42] it's the vertical padding. [21:23:01] google probably has a logo treatment guide out there that will describe how much space you have to give it. [21:24:24] *Dispenser is more worried the click area [21:24:40] just make the entire thing clicable. [21:25:09] oh. i see. you want to be able to go to diffrent locations. [21:25:12] it wikitext without stylesheets, so it hard [21:26:09] hrm. [21:26:48] well, i like the way they look. def. over the pink backgrounded thing above it. [21:26:58] is their a tutorial on pick good color combinations? [21:27:08] "art school" [21:27:25] but if you want wikimedia/pedia style color guidelines, there isn't one. [21:27:29] my engineering classes always interred with trying to take those [21:27:30] it's something i'm working on, though. [21:29:43] de has the frequent five (guessed) at the top, there is less scrolling on a netbook, and OSM is in the sidebar [21:41:42] adam_miller: can you look at this: http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Article_feedback&curid=50652&diff=353651&oldid=352348 [21:42:28] oh....of course [21:42:59] can't launch something on wikipedia without having it break some gadget [21:44:05] jorm: that's easy enough to add....seems dirty, but wont break anything [21:44:10] too right. [21:48:02] :| [21:48:11] Go take a look at subway.com html source [21:48:12] :| [21:49:20] that's insane [21:49:22] that's really bad html, amaturish [21:49:28] i wonder who their agency is [21:49:42] and how they haven't convinced them to spend $$$ on updating that site yet [21:53:57] it's generated by dreamweaver, looksl ike. [21:54:25] wow. love the GoToCountry() javascript. [21:55:10] i also love that massive sections of this page are commented out. [21:55:12] someone should email comments [at] subway.com these logs [21:55:56] I love all the little mouseover events that take up like 5 KB [21:58:25] yikes! the doctype is the middle of the page, line 169 [22:35:10] Nikerabbit: rainman-sr is the person to talk to about search (though I imagine you know that). [22:35:25] He's been doing a majority of the search work for the past few years. [22:51:46] "SUBWAY Web Team" points to "comments@subway.com". [22:52:10] "SUBWAY Web Team" smacks of the type of thing that comes out of an internal marketroid and not an agency. [22:52:18] but then, whoever made the page. . . .eesh. [22:52:42] the *could* be an agency, and an agency incompetent enough to build this page could come up with that. [22:53:05] but i think this is an internal team. [22:53:07] Nobody cares about the underlying HTML. [22:53:22] If it works correctly (or mostly correctly), that's all that matters.