[02:05:25] so, i'm writing the workflow in this TradeTrack thing using a switch statement. [02:05:38] i expect that will make some gods angry, someplace, but it feels right with this. [05:37:04] Ashlee: I responded to your comments on the article assessment workgroup page. [05:37:25] *Ashlee peeks. [05:39:14] You seem awfully intent to defend something that was so hastily put together. [05:39:33] I'm not really sure I understand why that is, [05:39:34] but okay. [05:40:27] There's some sort of passion there that's inexplicable. [05:42:03] > it must be obvious to the user that they can see the results of the article. [05:42:19] In every voting system ever on the Internet, it doesn't show the results like AA does. [05:42:48] are you sure about that? [05:42:50] for real? [05:42:57] Show me that's like that? [05:43:01] i mean, is that your Final Answer? [05:43:05] Show me one * [05:43:13] I've seen ones where you have to submit a blank vote. [05:43:14] any poll done through phpbb. [05:43:23] any poll on any major news site. [05:43:25] I've seen ones where you can can a "results" link. [05:44:29] there's no real passion; more like, "the girl is at roller derby, and i'm bored, so i answered questions." [05:44:47] i'm defending it because the decisions made were right given the constraints of the problem. [05:45:10] I would think you'd be looking for a way to escape this failtrain. [05:45:14] Not stand in front of it. [05:45:19] That's what doesn't make sense. [05:45:34] Because everyone else is gonna walk away from it. [05:45:41] That's my bet, at least. [05:45:55] well, i'm not that kind of person. if it fails, it fails, and it fails on my watch. [05:46:26] and i bet you're right; if it fails, there will be people who run far away. [05:46:33] Right. [05:46:43] but that doesn't mean that i don't stand by my work. [05:46:51] I think you're bullshitting on that page. [05:46:59] i'm not, actually. [05:47:00] That's a more direct way to say what I mean. [05:47:03] Well, I think you are. [05:47:29] *jorm shrugs. [05:47:32] And I've been wrong before, but you seem to be putting a lot out there that isn't backed by reality. [05:47:38] Which is a polite way to say "bullshit". :-) [05:47:43] *Ashlee shrugs, too. [05:47:48] i'm confused as to what reality you're seeing that i'm not. [05:47:56] http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1913870_1913868_1913831,00.html [05:48:15] Well, [05:48:23] There's an outside view and an inside view, I guess. [05:49:29] I'd be interested in a poll that shows the results before the user takes any action, whenever you have time. [05:49:50] yeah. that's, like, Mistakes in Polling 101. [05:50:01] there are some who share your view. [05:50:26] I don't think even WMF shows the results first. [05:50:29] Does it? [05:50:34] You have to click "show". [05:50:38] we don't, because it is a mistake to do so. [05:50:43] Right... [05:50:49] And my point is that you should hide the whole box. [05:50:57] Because it's super-obtrusive. [05:51:00] ah. you're a de-clutterist. [05:51:02] But you disagree, and that's fine. [05:51:20] But I think this will be one of the many reasons it fails. [05:51:46] I could live on Snickers. [05:52:07] i have a friend who tried that. she got scurvy. [05:52:29] Is scurvy the one you prevent by eating an orange? [05:52:33] it is. [05:52:50] *Ashlee pats himself on the back. [05:53:04] hence the existence of grog. [05:53:04] I'll be interested if others comment. [05:53:24] I think Sage or some other community folks might share my view. [05:53:28] Views, even. [05:53:43] i can tell you with high certainty that sage agrees with me. [05:53:48] I think there's a lot of potential to gather some cool data, but I don't intend it for to happen. [05:54:04] Because why make something cool and interesting when you can wonk about with lame-ass public policy keywords? [05:54:19] Well, Sage should say so, then. [05:54:46] hence why i didn't say with exact certitude; i'll let him speak for himself. feel free to ask him. [05:54:49] You seem to have a lot of phantom support, if you don't mind me saying. :-) [05:55:10] but we were in multiple meetings together and he really liked the designs and never raised any objections. [05:55:32] Maybe he's just more polite than I am. [05:55:40] Or maybe he was apathetic. [05:55:52] *Ashlee shrugs. I'd be interested in his thoughts. [05:55:56] i'm going to say that yes, he's more polite, but no, he was not apathetic. [05:55:58] so ask him. [05:56:17] You don't think having two boxes is too much? [05:56:31] i don't like having two boxes. i thought that was clear. [05:56:42] i think i've written up why in multiple places. [05:56:52] err, lemme rephrase. [05:56:53] Did you say that in your reply? [05:57:00] i don't like having two boxes NEXT TO each other. [05:57:01] I think you implied that having a separate box was a good thing. [05:57:14] it is. both boxes serve different purposes. [05:57:14] You don't think it looks ugly currently? [05:57:18] i think it does. [05:57:21] Sometimes people have this probelm with their children. [05:57:42] Problem. [05:57:43] Gah. [05:58:05] i think you're assuming i am in love with the entire thing. i'm not. [05:58:14] there's a shit-ton of stuff i want to do different, and would have. [05:58:33] Did you write any of that out? [05:58:43] but, as i said, there were constraints, and i had to work within them, and one of those was "the entire tool could only occupy one area of the screen" [05:58:45] You mentioned a roadmap (or "frameowrk"). Where's that? [05:58:52] *MrZ-man synergizes Ashlee's productivity paradigm [05:58:59] *Ashlee snuggles MrZ-man. ilu [05:59:16] MrZ-man: Erik and Eugene Kim are masters at that shit. [05:59:45] paragraph 2 of the design document: "Ideally, the two sections will not be placed in close proximity on the page. However, several factors prevent this from occuring during the pilot (including but not limited to expected resistance from readers and editors to placing the Rating Display box in a more prominant position)." [05:59:50] From what I've seen, Howie can play ball too. [06:00:09] jorm: Where's that from? [06:00:18] you were caught not reading! http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback/Public_Policy_Pilot/Design [06:00:37] I had no idea any of these pages existed until today. [06:00:40] Shocking as it may be, [06:00:51] I didn't try to waste _my_ time focusing on AA these past weeks. [06:00:51] you should try that on the next mailing list discussion with them, just reply in meaningless buzzwords. They'll probably take you more seriously [06:00:55] I have other shit to do. ;-) [06:01:09] But I'm more than capable of looking at the implemnetation and saying it sucks. [06:01:10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_buzzwords [06:01:21] It helps that it does suck, of course. [06:01:31] hah. you've been trying to give me shit all evening, and you didn't read ANY of the documentation. that's hawseom. [06:01:50] I haven't been trying to give you anything all evening. [06:02:07] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Article_feedback - v. detailed [06:03:30] that design document was linked to by a couple blog posts, a signpost article, and multiple emails. [06:03:31] Yeah, I'm not sure why I don't spend my time digging through multiple layers looking for design docs on a project I don't give a shit about. [06:03:34] I'm craaaaazy. [06:03:54] I not kidding, jorm, I haven't been following the AA shit for a reason. [06:04:01] I don't care about it; I'm hoping it dies. [06:04:10] And it will. [06:04:28] s/craaaaazy/druuuunk [06:04:31] "I don't care about it; I'm hoping it dies." <--- you realize that this makes NO sense, right? [06:04:50] What part doesn't make sense? [06:05:20] MrZ-man: Are you following? [06:05:40] only for the last 10 or so minutes [06:05:55] or you mean the AA project in general? [06:06:05] I mean do you understand what jorm's saying. [06:06:06] Anywhere. [06:06:18] And, yeah, are you following AA at all? [06:06:27] somewhat and no [06:06:49] I just want you to remember the next time you say I'm spouting off-the-cuff "bullshit" that you got called out. [06:06:54] I haven't been reading much of wikitech emails lately [06:07:00] jorm: You got me good. [06:07:03] So good. [06:07:09] just the ones that sound interesting [06:07:11] Nothing I've said contradicts anything I said over a month ago. [06:07:19] MrZ-man: I've been avoiding the parser tests ones. [06:07:22] They look horrible. [06:07:36] No, seriously, dude. I want you to remember that. Because I haven't lied about anything. [06:07:56] jorm: It's fine if you actually disagree, but I have this horrible feeling that you're just pushing the party line. [06:07:59] one of these days I'll actually get back into MW development [06:08:07] And if that isn't the case and you actually believe some of what you're saying, it's hopeless anyway. [06:08:11] So there's not much to gain here for me. [06:08:18] I was asked to comment on the AA project. [06:08:28] No, I'm not pushing the party line. In fact, when I was first brought onto the project, I wanted to kill it with fire. [06:08:31] And if it was your baby (which it seems to have been), you probably didn't like some of what I said. [06:08:34] Which is fine. [06:08:45] It was more adopted by me. [06:09:03] Well, if I told someone that their adopted child was ugly, I think they'd still be upset. [06:09:09] Which is fine. [06:09:11] after the whole community vs. staff thing I realized that the lack of site updates was one of the reasons I stopped [06:09:17] I had a couple conversations with some people and they brought me around to their vision. And I saw how it served the Mission, and I bought in. [06:09:23] MrZ-man: Yeah, it's all fallen apart. [06:09:44] Risker had some comments about community's breaking and never being fixable on her talk page, actually. [06:10:05] It's happening to MW devs, but she was talking about it in the sense of en.wiki. [06:10:15] Silly people. Communities don't "break". They "change" [06:10:32] Still, interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Risker | grep "shirky" [06:10:58] I had a couple conversations with some people and they brought me around to their vision. And I saw how it served the Mission, and I bought in. [06:11:16] Well, perhaps those people will share with everyone else what the hell they're doing. [06:11:23] they did. [06:11:27] Where? [06:11:35] a lot of it is on the strategy wiki. [06:11:39] Haha [06:11:40] Great. [06:11:52] but the one who convinced me was sue gardner. and it wasn't from the strategy wiki, what she said. [06:11:55] "Oh, this shitty project? It was a spawn of that other shitty project." [06:11:59] I love WMF, I really do. [06:12:08] Yeah, that's what I heard. [06:12:12] That Sue was behind this. [06:12:22] Which I don't understand, but it gave me some food for thought. [06:12:39] you just want to be dictator, dude. we can only do the things you think are right, and we have to behave like you want use to behave, and spend our time like you want us to. [06:12:53] that's not very wikipedian of you, methinks. [06:12:55] Yeah, that's my goal. [06:12:59] To rule Wikimedia. [06:13:34] i don't know who was behind the project; i just had a conversation with sue after i was put on it. [06:14:07] Phantom support. :D [06:14:27] Probably the Illuminati [06:15:10] man, how old are you that you take me choosing not to speak for someone else as having "phantom support?" [06:15:36] I'm not sure "phantom" is the right word, but it has nice enough imagery that I'm willing to use it anyway. [06:15:55] I was trying to think of a word that fit "the wizard from the 'Wizard of Oz'". [06:16:19] You know there's someone behind the curtain and you have a decent idea of who it is, but there's still that damn curtain in the way. [06:16:50] for someone who wants more WMF->community interaction, you sure are trying your damnedest to make sure that no one from the WMF wants to talk to you. [06:16:53] for real, dog. [06:17:03] I know. [06:17:27] If you think about Wikimedia as a cult, it makes a bit more sense. [06:17:52] i have a fairly good idea who is behind the curtain. i'm like, 99% certain, in fact. but that doesn't make it my place to say. and if i've got disagreements, i've pushed them towards the right direction (which, for me, is to Alolita, Danese, and possibly Erik) [06:17:56] You've got an established order. And a Vision and a Mission. You serve the Foundation. And when someone tries to disrupt that, you react. [06:18:13] Not "you" you. [06:18:20] But, y'know, the general you. [06:18:24] Ashlee should run in the board election [06:18:25] I'm gonna be blunt here. [06:18:42] MrZ-man: :D [06:18:49] I'm not Asian enough. [06:18:55] The way you speak belies a remarkable naivete about how things work - but more how they HAVE to work - to succeed. [06:19:00] photoshop [06:19:02] And I think by the time the next Board election comes around, it'll be -1 community seats. [06:19:04] it's not about party lines and dissent. [06:19:26] Sure it is. [06:19:56] It's funny that you say "how they have to work to succeed." [06:20:04] I think it demonstrates an ignorance of Wikipedia's beauty. [06:20:11] *Ashlee shrugs. [06:20:18] I'm not sure this conversation is productive. [06:20:22] come back to me when you've been living on your own for a couple years with a real job for a real boss in the real world. [06:20:26] Which is usually a cue that I should go do something else. [06:20:41] Oh, you've morphed? [06:20:47] You agree with me. [06:20:54] This frustrates the shit out of me. [06:21:07] People get angry at me when I say something that they actually agree with. [06:21:12] Because the frustration is shared. [06:21:15] No, i don't agree with you. [06:21:18] Sure. [06:21:31] I had/have the same issue on wikitech-l. [06:21:49] People don't like my tone or my tactics, but they generally agree that what I'm saying is true. [06:21:56] MrZ-man: Would you say that's accurate? [06:22:05] Sorry, mate. That's a bit of a delusion. [06:22:20] People don't like your tone or tactics, true. But often as not, they disagree with you. [06:22:32] I think its true of the community more than the staff [06:22:47] I think that's fair, MrZ-man. [06:22:55] come back to me when you've been living on your own for a couple years with a real job for a real boss in the real world. [06:23:06] I read a lot of frustration in that. [06:23:34] A lot of "this is paying the bills and the market sucks, so you're damn right that I'm gonna be pushin' the party line." [06:23:35] I don't think I've ever worked for a company that operated like Wikimedia [06:23:37] *Ashlee shrugs. [06:24:10] Wikimedia seems to be less interested in practical things than they are the "Vision" [06:24:41] you totally read that the wrong way, man. [06:24:43] completely. [06:24:47] Okay. [06:24:49] Then I can be wrong. [06:25:07] Maybe you'll eventually change your mind. :-) [06:25:16] You're still pretty new to Wikimedia. :-) [06:25:25] i meant that as "practicality always intrudes" and there are "optimal ways of doing things", and few of those ways are idealistic. [06:25:52] if my motivations were "paying the bills" then i would not have left EA because I took a *significant* pay cut to do so because I believe in the work. [06:26:03] Dedicated to the Mission? [06:26:09] yes, exactly that. [06:26:15] Right. [06:26:19] There's no winning here. [06:26:22] you laugh, you fucking make fun. [06:26:31] I don't laugh. It's kind of sad. [06:26:42] But I think it'll pass with time. [06:27:12] did you know that once upon a time i worked on an artificial intelligence for the military? my job was basically "create this thing that knows how to kill people." [06:27:29] I didn't know that. [06:27:44] there came a point - for me - when i said, "fuck, man, i'm done with this 'doing evil' shit." [06:27:45] Is that another reason my criticisms are invalid? Not knowing your CV? ;-) [06:28:13] So you turned to the Light Side? [06:28:19] no, i'm saying that when you make fun of me using words like "The Mission" that you don't know fuck all about my position in the matter. [06:28:19] You joined the Foundation? [06:28:21] Haha [06:28:45] at some point, I think donors will start to demand less "vision" and more "results." Hopefully the WMF will notice it [06:28:45] Your position in the matter? [06:29:27] ugh. whatever. i don't have to justify my believe in the mission to you. [06:29:36] No, you don't. [06:29:45] and stacey is home from roller derby, so i'm going to spend time with her now. [06:29:52] You're one of the faithful. They're lucky to have people like you. [06:29:57] Enjoy. :-) [06:30:08] yeah. stop busting my balls about it. [06:43:43] Oh, is this where #wikipedia-usability went? [06:52:46] #wikipedia_usability [06:57:25] Ashlee. [06:57:38] killiondude. [10:22:52] hmm, i see we are demotivating employees now..... [10:22:55] freaking sad [13:31:32] hello aude, guillom [13:32:18] good morning [13:32:23] well, good night for you [13:34:42] hi guillom, werdna ! [13:35:08] i'm up waaaay too early, in SF, but still used to east coast US time [13:36:23] hi aude [13:39:21] guillom: coming to WMF offices today? helping us? [13:40:25] no thanks [13:40:48] :( [13:41:23] well, we can take over everyones desks :) [13:41:26] nothing against you, of course; but to me it's my workplace, and coming to my workplace on week-ends just doesn't sound right [13:41:38] I may drop by if I'm in the neighborhood [13:41:55] but you're on here, it's the weekend... [13:42:32] this is workplace too ? [13:43:33] I was geeking out on IRC long before I joined the WMF :) [13:44:03] ahh [15:32:11] *werdna wishes he didn't have to work weekends [15:38:43] werdna: what are you working on these days? [15:42:07] aude: still LiquidThreads, though we have a pilot date now [15:42:09] (February) [15:42:17] also I'm at uni [15:42:22] and do other work [15:42:28] ergo, I have no time whatsoever [15:43:02] werdna: i know you are in school, so not so much time for mediawiki coding :/ [15:43:22] yeah [15:43:34] well, there's time [15:43:36] will you be able to attend the hackaton? [15:43:39] I just have to clear it, not get distracted [15:43:41] we'll see [15:43:42] or too busy with school [15:43:46] it's the week before my exams are due to start [15:43:59] maybe not a good idea then [15:44:08] I'll see how well off I am for the exams [15:44:33] it's a possibility, but not necessarily likely [15:44:40] I assume you'll be there [15:44:53] sure there will be something in berlin in the spring [15:45:10] definitely i will be at the hackathon... helping find a venue, etc. [15:45:15] :-) [15:45:17] yes [15:45:25] anyways, speaking of time, it's 1:45 [15:45:32] I really should be wandering in the general direction of bed [15:45:36] wow ! [15:45:41] hi robla, goodnight [15:45:43] i'm in SF... it's breakfast time [15:45:54] :-) [15:45:54] goodnight werdna ! [18:54:58] Is it okay for the private methods in skins/Vector.php be switched to protected? [21:06:56] is there a target date for enabling resourceloader on WMF? [21:16:17] RobLa mentioned maybe November on wikitech-l, I think. [21:16:42] But it's still very tentative. The bigger question is whether 1.17 will be released and if so, whether WMF will update to it beforehand. [21:18:04] I just want the newer version of jquery [21:18:19] we have 1.3.2 now, I need 1.4.1 or higher [21:20:10] Ah. [21:20:21] You might be able to convince Roan to upgrade that sooner. [21:20:29] It would probably make the transition to RL less painful.