[00:29:33] <TrevorParscal>	Ashlee: I'm working on a page (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_review) which seems similar in function to something you are working on (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Review_queue)
[00:30:07] <TrevorParscal>	Could I interest you in helping me merge them?
[02:43:33] <Ashlee>	TrevorParscal: The "Review queue" is an old page of Brion's. I think any type of public review system is great. If you want to redirect the old one or do something like that, go for it. :-)
[02:44:01] <Ashlee>	Some (most?) of the bugs listed there still seem to be open (:-/), so it probably makes sense to copy-paste some of the content, though.
[04:02:48] <Ashlee>	TrevorParscal: I'd also say that you should definitely get input of the person who would be doing the review (presumably Tim, I guess?).
[12:26:10] <thedj>	ehm
[12:26:14] <thedj>	<script src="/skins-1.5/common/https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/wiki/Special:NoticeText/meta/en/centralnotice.js?283t"
[12:26:18] <thedj>	is that normal ?
[12:27:35] <thedj>	404 not found. guess not
[12:30:07] <thedj>	filed as https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25283
[12:30:42] <RoanKattouw>	Interesting bug
[12:32:05] <thedj>	might just be a config error fixable by a shell user, but i figured i better put it on a centralnotice dev's plate :D
[12:34:14] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah
[12:34:19] <RoanKattouw>	I doubt it's a config issue
[12:34:28] <RoanKattouw>	But if it is, they'll be able to tell for sure
[14:05:11] <thedj>	RoanKattouw: there is a problem with article assement. it uses jquery UI for the feedback form, which is not availabe on monobok.
[14:05:27] <RoanKattouw>	Do you mean the dialog shows up unstyled?
[14:07:19] <thedj>	yup missing css
[14:07:35] <RoanKattouw>	Thought so
[14:07:39] <RoanKattouw>	Let me fix that
[16:37:21] <pdhanda>	Ryan_Lane:  mumble?
[17:12:19] <Ashlee>	Oh, I had that issue last night.
[17:12:31] <Ashlee>	About the CSS feedback form with Monobook.
[17:12:45] <Ashlee>	I figured something in my account was screwing with it.
[17:16:29] <jorm>	adam_miller: what is the name of the branch you are using for LQ dev?
[17:18:49] <adam_miller>	I think it's lqtrewrite
[17:19:07] <adam_miller>	don't believe i've committed any code to it since it's been branched
[17:21:12] <jorm>	hrm.  can you?  i want to start looking at that and getting my feet wet.
[17:21:22] <jorm>	roan made the branch.
[17:34:55] <jorm>	i miss werdna already.
[17:37:51] <Ashlee>	jorm: There doesn't seem to be much meaningful discussion of avataras in LQT on the talk page.
[17:38:08] <jorm>	that's because i've been busy as hell with other projects.
[17:38:14] <Ashlee>	Okay.
[17:38:35] <Ashlee>	I just don't want to get into a situation where it becomes "oh, we've been planning this for months and nobody wanted to discuss it."
[17:38:40] <jorm>	there seems to be a mistaken impression that everyone here has 80+ hours a week with which to devote to handling demands from the community.
[17:39:00] <Ashlee>	I don't think most people have that impression.
[17:39:36] <jorm>	Here's the truth about avatars:  they will be going out in the pilot.  There will be a preference to disable them.  This is going to be test data that will be used to determine the accept rate, popularity, and policy issues that surround them.
[17:40:08] <Ashlee>	Who made these decisions?
[17:40:12] <jorm>	i did.
[17:40:21] <Ashlee>	And you'll be writing this code?
[17:40:43] <jorm>	andrew, adam, me, possible others.
[17:41:02] <Ashlee>	When's the pilot slated for?
[17:41:19] <jorm>	current plan is late february but i expect that to slip.
[17:41:44] <Ashlee>	So there really isn't any community input here, I guess?
[17:42:23] <jorm>	there is, and there's a whole thing i want to do about how to move forward with that, but i got nailed with article assessment for the past 5 weeks and had to put everything on hold.
[17:42:33] <Ashlee>	Okay.
[17:42:59] <jorm>	if "community input" equates to "absolutely no way this is unacceptable no discussion" then I don't consider that "community input" i consider that "trollish obstruction"
[17:43:03] <jorm>	if you take my meaning.
[17:43:24] <jorm>	i'm a pretty reasonable person.  and i've got a lot of changes to the current designs posted based on a lot of feedback.
[17:43:42] <jorm>	i just never have longer than 10 minutes at a time to work on anything anymore.
[17:43:47] <Ashlee>	As opposed to "we're going to have avatars because someone said so, but we won't tell you who and we won't give any rationale for it"?
[17:43:59] <jorm>	i have plenty of rationale.
[17:44:02] <Ashlee>	Is that "trollish obstruction" or is there a separate term for that?
[17:44:18] <Ashlee>	Okay.
[17:44:40] <jorm>	and i've given it in places; i didn't want to put it on the page because i was waiting for a bunch of research documents to be given to me but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.
[17:44:46] <jorm>	so i'm going to have to do that work myself, i guess.
[17:44:50] <Ashlee>	Okay.
[17:44:59] <Ashlee>	Well, I look forward to reading it. :-)
[17:45:25] <jorm>	what i didn't want to do was say "studies show x, y, z" and not be able to point to pages in the studies.
[17:45:48] <Ashlee>	Right. That'd be unhelpful.
[17:46:13] <jorm>	i have a bunch of pdfs but they're less than useful.
[17:46:17] <Ashlee>	Also, I'm not sure there have been many studies of Wikimedia possibly using avatars, so I'm not sure how helpful they'd be. ;-)
[17:46:20] <jorm>	err, i mean, i can't republish them.
[17:46:27] <jorm>	hence, why this study.
[17:46:42] <jorm>	either way, this is Being Bold.
[17:46:44] <Ashlee>	I'll be curious how the implementation goes.
[17:46:56] <Ashlee>	There are a few large tech obstacles.
[17:47:08] <Ashlee>	It'll be fun to watch, at least.
[17:47:08] <jorm>	yes, which is what andrew is currently tasked with exploring.
[17:47:16] <jorm>	it will absolutely be fun to watch.
[17:47:29] <jorm>	and if it goes down in flames it won't be the first time an experiment has done that.
[17:47:38] <Ashlee>	Global avatars might make people hate them less. But there's still no global preferences system.
[17:47:44] <jorm>	but i expect that you'll find that the overall response will be positive.
[17:47:51] <jorm>	...there is.  kind of.
[17:48:09] <Ashlee>	Well, if there is, nobody's using it.
[17:48:17] <jorm>	it's not turned on.
[17:48:30] <Ashlee>	You're talking about the work Andrew did?
[17:48:32] <jorm>	there are bugs with it, or summat.
[17:48:34] <jorm>	yeah.
[17:48:35] <Ashlee>	I don't think it has a UI.
[17:48:42] <jorm>	that would be a 'bug"
[17:48:51] <Ashlee>	Or a "feature request." :-)
[17:50:29] <jorm>	so, in this case, we'd have to do avatar implementation in two phases.
[17:50:55] <jorm>	first would be some sort of local storage. maybe like a user css or js file.  we'll have to do that anyway for non wmf wikis, so it's needed.
[17:51:43] <jorm>	a centralized, global avatar system would be a lot more work, and if the pilot shows that it's not wanted or worth it, it wouldn't be done. but if it showed global was good, we could either put it in the global prefs, or do something like a namespace on commons, or something.
[17:51:46] <Ashlee>	Non-WMF wikis?
[17:52:00] <jorm>	well, ones that don't use our central auth/preferences system.
[17:52:08] <jorm>	translatewiki, for instance.
[17:52:20] <Ashlee>	That's a feature request?
[17:52:30] <jorm>	no, it's a requirement to even do it.
[17:52:38] <Ashlee>	I'm lost.
[17:52:54] <Ashlee>	It's a requirement that (useless) avatars be shared between WMF and non-WMF wikis?
[17:53:08] <jorm>	you're totally lost, if that's what you think i'm saying.
[17:53:28] <jorm>	for the feature to work (at all) it has to support storage in the local wiki.
[17:53:55] <jorm>	for the feature to work on a global level is another step, and requires more work.
[17:54:23] <jorm>	i'm not saying shared between wmf and non-wmf wikis (ala 'gravatar' style).
[17:54:28] <Ashlee>	I'm not sure why you think that it has to support "storage in the local wiki."
[17:54:34] <Ashlee>	That's not how I'd say Commons works currently.
[17:54:51] <Ashlee>	You know translatewiki isn't a WMF wiki, right?
[17:55:18] <jorm>	say you run a wiki about pokemon.  it's a private wiki. you want to install lq.  you want avatars.  the extension has to work with local storage.
[17:55:27] <jorm>	i'm unsure what's hard to understand here.
[17:55:37] <Ashlee>	Ah.
[17:55:39] <jorm>	we can't expect wiki.urbandead.com to read it's avatars from commons.
[17:56:14] <Ashlee>	That makes far more sense.
[17:58:55] <Ashlee>	I imagine it'll end up that it'll be restricted to images at Commons.
[17:59:08] <jorm>	that's my expectation.
[17:59:24] <jorm>	i expect that commons will get a new namespace, Avatar:
[17:59:25] <Ashlee>	That seems like the easiest implementation route. Guarantees free images are used; already has support APIFileRepo, etc.; already has shared support among the wiki family...
[17:59:26] <jorm>	or something.
[17:59:50] <Ashlee>	I'm not sure why you'd need a new namespace. You could just call the images like you normally do.
[18:00:24] <jorm>	Ah!  but then you have everyone putting up images of themselves, and then people at commons freak out about how it's not encyclopedic...
[18:01:01] <Ashlee>	I'm not sure the Commoners really care about that.
[18:01:18] <Ashlee>	Though, yeah, content separation of some sort would be nice.
[18:02:09] <Ashlee>	Without duplicating content...
[18:02:13] <jorm>	hence the namespace idea.
[18:02:48] <Ashlee>	Hmm.
[18:03:06] <jorm>	[[Avatar:Jorm]]
[18:03:09] <jorm>	etc.
[18:03:40] <jorm>	the problem with global avatars also is the entire bit with policing and offensive content.
[18:03:51] <jorm>	if it's local, then local admins can enforce local policy.
[18:04:09] <jorm>	if it's global, though, now we're into meta/beauracrat/steward/etc.
[18:04:15] <Ashlee>	[[Avatar:Jorm]] would only work nicely if you had the global account and all local accounts.
[18:04:26] <Ashlee>	bureaucrat
[18:04:42] <jorm>	we WILL have jackasses who set their avatars to images of muhammed.
[18:05:31] <Ashlee>	:D
[18:08:52] <Ryan_Lane>	Ashlee: and what's wrong with that?
[18:09:13] <Ashlee>	Ryan_Lane: What's wrong with what?
[18:09:27] <Ryan_Lane>	gah
[18:09:30] <Ryan_Lane>	wrong person
[18:09:38] <Ryan_Lane>	jorm: and what's wrong with that?
[18:10:02] <jorm>	because then ace wiki won't be able to enforce their local "no images of muhammed" policy.
[18:10:18] <Ryan_Lane>	ah. didn't realize one had that policy
[18:13:11] <jorm>	well, either way, local admins won't be able to put baby in the coroner if the stuff is on commons.
[18:13:22] <jorm>	now, if we have a "disable for local wiki foo" flag, that might work.
[18:13:32] <RoanKattouw>	Or just have local overrides
[18:13:41] <Ashlee>	I'm not sure the baby usually gets put in the coroner. That's a bit morbid!
[18:13:54] <RoanKattouw>	So only use the global avatar if there is no local avatar specification
[18:13:54] <Ashlee>	I'd treat it like blocks.
[18:13:58] <Ashlee>	Have local and global.
[18:14:01] <jorm>	a line from a movie before many of you were born.
[18:14:25] <jorm>	even if you hate the idea you can see it is an interesting problem.
[18:14:54] <Ashlee>	I have until February to make my animated Goatse/Muhammed avatar.
[18:14:56] <Ashlee>	I'm excited.
[18:15:22] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: I have other unrelated changes on ResourceLoaderModule.php - could you just change line 165 to "return $this->fileDeps[$skin] = array();" please?
[18:15:22] <RoanKattouw>	hahaha
[18:15:32] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[18:17:12] <RoanKattouw>	Done
[18:24:39] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Proceeding to poke at bug 25281 (privacy issue) cause it's pretty serious
[18:24:56] <TrevorParscal>	ok
[18:24:59] <TrevorParscal>	before you do
[18:25:04] <TrevorParscal>	can we talk about it for a sec?
[18:25:27] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[18:25:35] <RoanKattouw>	Did you read my comment on that bug?
[18:25:43] <TrevorParscal>	yes
[18:25:55] <RoanKattouw>	Oh you replied
[18:25:56] <TrevorParscal>	did you read mine?
[18:25:57] <RoanKattouw>	Let me read that
[18:26:26] <RoanKattouw>	OK so based on a $wg you either wanna inline it mw.config-style or load it on-demand
[18:26:40] <RoanKattouw>	The latter being done in a less naive way
[18:27:25] <RoanKattouw>	Right?
[18:28:14] <TrevorParscal>	yeah
[18:28:25] <TrevorParscal>	and we want to use $wgUser in the module code
[18:28:26] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[18:28:42] <TrevorParscal>	and I'm almost done with some refactoring that will make this easier
[18:28:49] <TrevorParscal>	I've written a patch for this bug 3 times now
[18:29:11] <TrevorParscal>	but it was pretty late last night so I reverted and decided to talk with you and do it over in the morning
[18:29:48] <RoanKattouw>	OK well if you're doing that
[18:29:51] <RoanKattouw>	I can work on ESI too
[18:30:39] <RoanKattouw>	Is that something I can 'safely' do, respecting your local changes?
[18:34:02] <TrevorParscal>	probably
[18:34:04] <TrevorParscal>	I'm nearly done
[18:34:34] <RoanKattouw>	OK I'm poking at yongle right now anyway
[18:49:19] <TrevorParscal>	ok
[18:49:25] <TrevorParscal>	I'm going to lunch with my wife quickly
[18:49:36] <TrevorParscal>	or.. well I will be gone for a bit
[18:49:39] <TrevorParscal>	I will have my phone
[18:49:52] <TrevorParscal>	when are you going to bed Roan?
[18:49:57] <alolita1>	TrevorParscal: good; have fun
[18:49:58] <RoanKattouw>	No idea
[18:50:03] <RoanKattouw>	It's Friday so not very early
[18:50:08] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: hi!
[18:50:11] <RoanKattouw>	Enjoy lunch with the wife
[18:50:17] <RoanKattouw>	Morning al
[18:50:25] <RoanKattouw>	* alolita1
[18:50:25] <TrevorParscal>	RoanKattouw: be back in a bit
[18:50:33] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: Hi Roan
[19:42:48] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: There's a "bug" in the JS minifier causing it to preserve newlines inside comments (wtf?) , see load.php?debug=false&lang=en&modules=startup&only=scripts&skin=vector
[20:02:29] <flipzagging>	ok, alolita1, guillom, today's update?
[20:02:32] <alolita1>	guillom, flipzagging: hi
[20:02:48] <RoanKattouw>	TrevorParscal: Basic ESI support in SVN now. Gonna switch to watching a movie for a bit
[20:02:48] <alolita1>	guillom: any news from jay
[20:03:10] <flipzagging>	hey RoanKattouw
[20:03:15] <guillom>	alolita1, no, he's in today, but I sent the note to the illustrator yesterday without waiting for him
[20:03:19] <Ashlee>	Which movie?
[20:03:26] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: fyi need some time from you for flipzagging
[20:03:40] <flipzagging>	alolita1: I was just about to remind him ;)
[20:03:43] <alolita1>	guillom: thanks!
[20:03:55] <alolita1>	flipzagging: please go ahead :-)
[20:03:57] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: starting Monday
[20:03:58] <guillom>	and today I'm working almost exclusively on the project report
[20:04:12] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: I will have docs for you too.
[20:04:14] <alolita1>	guillom: cool -
[20:04:31] <RoanKattouw>	OK cool
[20:04:33] <alolita1>	we have a lot of ground to cover next week
[20:04:43] <RoanKattouw>	So I'm supposed to be starting UploadWizard review next week?
[20:04:52] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: yes
[20:05:01] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[20:05:03] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: yes, especially the PHP parts
[20:05:13] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: Trevor will be involved too
[20:05:14] <jorm>	After that I'm going to need you for another five projects.
[20:05:18] <jorm>	Just fyi.
[20:05:26] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: I may still be fiddling with a big JS refactor on Monday, but perhaps later in the week that will be settled.
[20:05:29] <RoanKattouw>	Thought so
[20:05:33] *jorm 	wants ALL the projects.
[20:05:33] <RoanKattouw>	Alright
[20:05:35] <alolita1>	RoanKattown: hehehe :-)
[20:05:44] <alolita1>	5 is too little
[20:05:45] <RoanKattouw>	Well I'm hoping to put Trevor on JS review as much as possible
[20:05:54] <alolita1>	RoanKattouw: totally
[20:05:58] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: that would be better for both of us, since he's right here.
[20:06:06] <RoanKattouw>	Exactly
[20:06:12] <flipzagging>	great
[20:06:15] *RoanKattouw 	is really gonna watch the movie now
[20:06:25] <flipzagging>	alolita1: I need a new computer so I can deal with PHP and JS reviews simultaneously FYI
[20:06:33] <flipzagging>	alolita1: one for the left hand one for the right
[20:06:47] <alolita1>	flipzagging: i know - i was thinking you needed 3 ;-) not two
[20:07:06] <alolita1>	one for PHP, one for JS and one for the resource loader :-)
[20:07:18] <alolita1>	or rather left, right and center
[20:07:30] <flipzagging>	alolita1: well that would be silly
[20:07:37] <alolita1>	:-) i know
[20:07:51] <flipzagging>	alolita1: :)
[20:08:16] <alolita1>	guillom: are you cool with everything on your plate for uw
[20:08:18] <flipzagging>	ok, now over here
[20:08:20] <alolita1>	this coming week
[20:08:35] <flipzagging>	we are having the meeting w/ the designer today or what? and should I go?
[20:08:45] <alolita1>	guillom: ?
[20:08:48] <alolita1>	are we
[20:08:52] <guillom>	no, he didn't get back to me
[20:08:58] <flipzagging>	oh
[20:09:00] <guillom>	we still have to work on the agreement
[20:09:06] <flipzagging>	I guess that's why alolita1 isn't in today either ;)
[20:09:12] <guillom>	I may call him this afternoon
[20:09:16] <alolita1>	guillom: i see ; so next week then
[20:09:20] <guillom>	yes
[20:09:51] <alolita1>	flipzagging: i think i work harder on more conf calls while wfh than even from wmf
[20:10:33] <flipzagging>	alolita1: oh no, I just meant that yesterday you thought you might swing by if the designer could make a morning meeting
[20:10:43] <alolita1>	guillom: i am assuming all things will go smoothly with the designer next week and we will have progress by next
[20:10:52] <flipzagging>	. o O ( designer, artist ? )
[20:11:08] <guillom>	alolita1, yes, the illustrator knows our timeline
[20:11:40] <alolita1>	flipzagging: yes - but with guillom having to wait on so many folks to sync-up there was 50-50 chance that we would not be able to meet today
[20:11:56] <alolita1>	guillom: yes - it will work out i am hoping
[20:12:13] <Ashlee>	Who's the designer?
[20:12:40] <guillom>	I didn't have to wait for many people to sync up, I just wanted to work on the agreement before having the kick-off :)
[20:13:09] <alolita1>	guillom: yes totally
[20:13:30] <guillom>	Ashlee, for the licensing tutorial? We'll be working with an illustrator (Michael Bartalos), and we'll get some support from the designer who works with Jay on other projects (David Peters)
[20:13:34] <flipzagging>	Ashlee: http://bartalosillustration.com/
[20:14:11] <alolita1>	flipzagging: any other code updates? you've synced up with trevor on the resource loader
[20:14:23] <flipzagging>	well let's see
[20:14:41] <flipzagging>	debugging a resource loader / mw.Language.js issue yesterday (minor but it eluded me for some time)
[20:14:44] <Ashlee>	Interesting. Will it be animal-themed?
[20:14:59] <flipzagging>	otherwise I am working on the web frontend of SessionStash at the moment
[20:15:08] <guillom>	Ashlee, no :)
[20:15:28] <Ashlee>	"Click the turtle to select a license."
[20:15:33] <Ashlee>	I think that'd be cute.
[20:15:34] <flipzagging>	it occurs to me that I should really run the design of that past wikitech-l ... it's a little bit unusual relative to how the rest of MediaWiki works.
[20:15:36] <alolita1>	flipzagging: that's cool - flag trevor if you need to
[20:15:46] <flipzagging>	design = design of sessionstash, not visual design.
[20:15:56] <Ashlee>	flipzagging: Probably a good idea. :-)
[20:16:02] <alolita1>	flipzagging: definitely run that on wikitech-l
[20:16:04] <flipzagging>	anyway the docs I prepare for Roan will be useful for that too
[20:16:24] <flipzagging>	Ashlee: wikitech-l and good idea in the same sentence... well it could happen... ;)
[20:16:31] <alolita1>	flipzagging: good; we should post these on mw.o also
[20:16:39] <flipzagging>	hm
[20:16:54] <flipzagging>	well we have been using usability, but as guillom has noted, it doesn't get attention
[20:16:56] <Ashlee>	flipzagging: You may not like the tone of the messages, but there's usually plenty of signal there.
[20:17:08] <flipzagging>	Ashlee: I'm kidding around. I agree
[20:17:12] <Ashlee>	:-)
[20:17:25] <Ashlee>	Can usability.wm.o be locked?
[20:17:28] <Ashlee>	And forgotten about? :-/
[20:17:29] <alolita1>	flipzagging: we are posting all project docs on mw.o
[20:17:36] <guillom>	Ashlee, in a month
[20:17:39] <guillom>	not before
[20:17:48] <Ashlee>	Okay.
[20:17:48] <guillom>	I still have all my docs there
[20:18:00] <Ashlee>	I'll write you a script to export them. :D
[20:18:09] <alolita1>	guillom: once we can transition over - we should have everything from mw.o
[20:18:24] <guillom>	Ashlee, Special:Export / Special:Import ? :)
[20:18:28] <guillom>	alolita1, yep
[20:19:09] <alolita1>	guillom, flipzagging: cool; that's all we have today then.
[20:19:27] <guillom>	yep
[20:19:32] <guillom>	safe flight :)
[20:19:33] <flipzagging>	ok, talk to you next week, enjoy Paris
[20:19:45] <alolita1>	guillom, flipzagging: keep me posted and i will see you after week after :-)
[20:19:47] <alolita1>	cheers
[20:21:13] <RoanKattouw>	Enjoy Paris alolita1
[21:24:15] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: are you awake / still with us?
[21:24:25] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[21:24:30] <RoanKattouw>	For a little bit
[21:24:30] <flipzagging>	oh hey
[21:24:49] <flipzagging>	what would you advise if an extension or something else wants to conditionally add a parameter to an API method
[21:24:50] <jorm>	what time is it there?
[21:25:01] <flipzagging>	let me show you something that I think doesn't work
[21:25:34] <RoanKattouw>	It's 11:25pm (jorm)
[21:25:48] <jorm>	oh, okay.  for some reason i thought it might be like, 4 a.m.
[21:25:55] <RoanKattouw>	Wait, /conditionally/ add a parameter? That sounds like a very bad idea
[21:26:05] <RoanKattouw>	jorm: I don't live in China
[21:28:17] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/api/ApiUpload.php?annotate=70137&pathrev=70137#l369
[21:28:39] <RoanKattouw>	Oh God
[21:28:50] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: right, it causes warnings if the extension isn't enabled, among other things
[21:28:55] <flipzagging>	here's what I think is a better idea
[21:29:15] <flipzagging>	define the getAllowedParams() method to check for a hook, and defer getAllowedParams to that hook
[21:29:23] <flipzagging>	or, allow the hook to add params or something
[21:29:35] <RoanKattouw>	Ah what?
[21:29:37] <flipzagging>	by passing in the existing array of params
[21:29:39] <RoanKattouw>	That sounds like an even worse idae
[21:29:46] <flipzagging>	ok, what's a less terrible idea
[21:30:08] <RoanKattouw>	OK so first, the parameters should always be available
[21:30:14] *flipzagging 	nods
[21:30:31] <RoanKattouw>	So if the param is not supported, there should be a warning or error, whichever makes more sense
[21:31:10] <RoanKattouw>	Trying to do an async upload and having it be converted to sync silently sounds like a bad idea
[21:31:19] <RoanKattouw>	The latter is exactly what happens if you add the params conditionally
[21:31:22] <flipzagging>	yes, that all happens automatically now due to the goodness of getAllowedParams
[21:31:31] <RoanKattouw>	No
[21:31:36] <RoanKattouw>	Unrecognized params are simply ignored
[21:31:43] <flipzagging>	oh
[21:31:49] <flipzagging>	that seems like a bug
[21:31:49] <RoanKattouw>	The API isn't seriously gonna scan the entire query string for stuff it doesn't recognize
[21:32:02] <RoanKattouw>	No web app I know of does that kind of thing
[21:32:09] <flipzagging>	ok
[21:32:14] <RoanKattouw>	What we do do is warn for invalid /values/ of parameters
[21:32:25] <RoanKattouw>	(Warn for multivalue, error for single-value)
[21:32:29] <flipzagging>	but anyway, the goodness of getAllowedParams is that all params are at least initialized and checked for type and so on.
[21:32:33] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[21:32:41] <flipzagging>	and documented!!
[21:32:45] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[21:33:09] <flipzagging>	ok so
[21:33:14] <RoanKattouw>	Now in most cases I would probably support conditionally adding the params, now I think about it better
[21:33:21] <RoanKattouw>	But in this case that's probably not a good idea
[21:33:23] <flipzagging>	what if I want to enhance an API method via extension, or some other optional thingy
[21:33:37] <flipzagging>	what's a non-retarded way to do this
[21:33:42] <RoanKattouw>	Because of what happens when you pass the parameter thinking it's gonna do one thing, and having it ignore that and do something totally different
[21:33:51] <flipzagging>	well, yeah
[21:34:02] <RoanKattouw>	The framework for enhancing existing API modules is lacking
[21:34:07] <RoanKattouw>	You basically have two options
[21:34:10] <flipzagging>	I think that if you are adding a feature to core (controlled by globals) it should *always* be defined in getAllowedParams()
[21:34:31] <flipzagging>	with the documentation that you need to enable a global for it to work or whatever
[21:34:51] <RoanKattouw>	I'm a bit torn on that one, but fortunately I don't think there's any examples in core other than ApiUpload
[21:34:52] <flipzagging>	as for extensions, I think deferring to a hook for getAllowedParams() makes sense
[21:34:57] <flipzagging>	since once you install the extension
[21:35:05] <flipzagging>	bam, the docs and other capabilities change.
[21:35:14] <RoanKattouw>	OK so
[21:35:22] <RoanKattouw>	When augmenting an existing API module, you have two options
[21:35:30] <RoanKattouw>	The easy and limited option is the APIAfterExecute hook
[21:35:40] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: I have checked, this is the only time we have anything like a conditional in any Api module's params.
[21:36:02] <RoanKattouw>	Which fires when execute() has finished on a module and passes the module object
[21:36:15] <flipzagging>	yeah, that won't work in this case
[21:36:17] <RoanKattouw>	This is of limited use and probably not very interesting to you
[21:36:41] <RoanKattouw>	There is another way that's a bit hacky and inflexible in that only one extension can use it per module
[21:37:05] <RoanKattouw>	Which is to define class ApiMyBetterUpload extends ApiUpload, and set $wgAPIModules['upload'] = 'ApiMyBetterUpload';
[21:37:12] <flipzagging>	ah
[21:37:17] <flipzagging>	that's interesting
[21:37:28] <flipzagging>	although, I usually don't like subclassing for that sort of thing.
[21:37:42] <RoanKattouw>	I don't like this system either, but that's how it is
[21:37:56] <RoanKattouw>	Out of interest, what feature are you planning to add from which extension?
[21:38:03] <flipzagging>	well, here we have a situation where I'm writing an extension that extends UploadAPI capabilities.
[21:38:15] <RoanKattouw>	I got that much
[21:38:20] <RoanKattouw>	But why is that in an extension?
[21:38:23] <flipzagging>	Bryan is doing something similar only as a global controlled thing
[21:38:35] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: politics, mostly :(
[21:38:53] <RoanKattouw>	Do explain
[21:39:18] <flipzagging>	well, the theory is that an extension is less likely to be rejected outright.
[21:39:26] <RoanKattouw>	Rejected by whom?
[21:39:30] <flipzagging>	guess
[21:39:53] <RoanKattouw>	Tim? :)
[21:39:57] <flipzagging>	in any case, I used to depend on MwEmbed, and then JS2
[21:40:10] <flipzagging>	and then JS2 became an extension, so it made sense for UploadWizard to also be an extension
[21:40:17] <flipzagging>	and now you guys have ResourceLoader
[21:40:23] <flipzagging>	which is back in core
[21:40:23] <RoanKattouw>	UploadWizard being an extension - sure, I get that
[21:40:36] <RoanKattouw>	But depending on the nature of your API enhancements (please specify), those could go in core
[21:40:41] <flipzagging>	oh I see
[21:40:42] <flipzagging>	hm
[21:41:05] <flipzagging>	well, what I'm doing is adding a param that forces the upload to be stashed
[21:41:12] <flipzagging>	currently the upload is only stashed if there's an issue
[21:41:22] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[21:41:25] <flipzagging>	I also stash the upload in a very specific way
[21:41:36] <flipzagging>	that makes it possible to extract a thumbnail and show it to ONLY the uploading user.
[21:41:42] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[21:41:58] <RoanKattouw>	How is the latter done? Session data, per your wikitech-l post?
[21:42:04] <flipzagging>	exactly
[21:42:22] <flipzagging>	that's how the stashing works now, I just have added some other capabilities.
[21:42:37] <flipzagging>	so I have a new module called SessionStash which, I think *ought* to be added to core
[21:42:45] <RoanKattouw>	Yes
[21:42:52] <RoanKattouw>	All this stashing stuff should be in core IMO
[21:43:08] <flipzagging>	since it does what UploadBase::stashSession() does only better and more extensibly -- for instance FirefoggChunkedUpload uses the same functionality but slightly different.
[21:43:21] <flipzagging>	and there are a number of other extensions likethat
[21:43:24] <RoanKattouw>	It's not really specific to UploadWizard, just to the concept of doing multiple-step uploads
[21:43:24] <flipzagging>	like that
[21:43:28] <flipzagging>	yes
[21:43:36] <flipzagging>	sooo
[21:43:41] <flipzagging>	I could add SessionStash to core
[21:44:05] <flipzagging>	and the "must stash" upload param too
[21:44:09] <flipzagging>	...
[21:44:15] <flipzagging>	hrm
[21:44:22] <flipzagging>	I also change the return value there
[21:44:31] <RoanKattouw>	change the return value?
[21:44:33] <flipzagging>	since UploadWizard has to get info about where the thumbnail is
[21:44:46] <RoanKattouw>	Right so you have to add a field to the result
[21:44:47] <flipzagging>	I add the equivalent of an imageinfo
[21:45:00] <flipzagging>	because you can't really do an imageinfo request for a file that's not in the db
[21:45:02] <RoanKattouw>	Well, you could generalize how stashing is done
[21:45:19] <flipzagging>	I know but I'm also trying to get this done very quickly
[21:45:23] <flipzagging>	sigh
[21:45:28] <RoanKattouw>	So once something is stashed you get back some kind of associative array structure that describes how to get to the stashed file
[21:45:34] <RoanKattouw>	This could probably be done fairly quickly
[21:45:37] <flipzagging>	foundation + grant + quality clusterfuck
[21:45:43] <RoanKattouw>	I know
[21:45:50] <flipzagging>	I have all this done already, but it's not generalized
[21:45:55] <RoanKattouw>	OK
[21:46:14] <RoanKattouw>	Well I'd have to look at the code and decide whether I think it's horrible or not
[21:46:18] <flipzagging>	to do it more generally, we probably need another database table, and even a new concept of "stash" for FileRepos, and I'm trying to limit the controversy here
[21:46:24] <flipzagging>	RoanKattouw: you will ;)
[21:46:43] <RoanKattouw>	Yeah, that sounds like too much to bite off
[21:46:44] <jorm>	AT&T: You Will.
[21:46:46] <flipzagging>	anyway let me try something and you can excoriate me Monday
[21:46:56] <flipzagging>	or, think about it over the weekend
[21:47:14] <flipzagging>	thanks for the advice
[21:48:05] <RoanKattouw>	Sure
[21:48:53] <RoanKattouw>	Also, try not to think of Tim as the bogeyman too much ;)
[21:49:17] <flipzagging>	there are some perverse incentives here
[21:49:26] <flipzagging>	I have noticed that I don't think about "what would be best for the code"
[21:49:33] <flipzagging>	I think about "what would be best for the grant"
[21:49:56] <jorm>	Have you ever seen moldy milk talking with your leg six times in a row?  Or been hugged warmly by French religious fanatics while being constipated?  You will.  And the company that will bring it to you: AT&T.
[21:49:58] <flipzagging>	or rather, I try to do both but the latter has to win.
[21:50:02] <RoanKattouw>	When you decide something should be an extension rather than in core, and you find yourself jumping through hooks to make that work, it should've probably been core all along. This is what I was trying to say in that wikitech-l discussion earlier this week
[21:50:08] <flipzagging>	heh
[21:50:28] <flipzagging>	jorm: the chemical that will bring that to you: LSD
[21:50:53] <jorm>	i have an ircII script that will generate those things.
[22:28:55] <Ashlee>	I'll take you there.
[22:34:45] <Otourly>	Ashlee: ? just like a prayer ?
[22:34:58] <Ashlee>	:-)
[22:35:50] <Otourly>	:p