[00:48:23] SimpleSurvey? [00:48:30] Just how many survey technologies does WMF use? [00:48:38] Google Survey, survey.wikimedia.org, SimpleSurvey... [16:40:50] So, feature priority dartboards. [16:40:56] heh. [16:41:02] so, we came up with a basic timeline. [16:41:07] yeah, I saw [16:41:14] and i'll get that on a wiki, in my copious spare time. [16:41:25] well, an even more granulated one, but i've got it on paper. [16:41:32] ahh [16:41:33] 2 week clumps. [16:41:51] well, that's cool with me [16:41:59] so, the rest of september is me finishing up some designs and prioritizing bugs. [16:42:07] knowing what I'm working on would be an improvement [16:42:12] then we have the first half of october for development and such. [16:42:27] are you coming to the hack-a-ton thing? [16:42:32] no clue [16:42:43] nobody's said anything about it to me [16:42:48] okay. [16:42:57] well, the last week or so of october is a wash for me. [16:43:12] nod, if I'm not at hackathon I'll be studying [16:43:13] then all of november is aggressive coding, with the first two weeks of december as well. [16:43:23] my exams start Oct 29, finish mid-November [16:43:33] then we're boned for the last half of december. [16:43:44] yeah, people will be travelling and stuff [16:43:52] I'll be travelling Dec. 20 or so until Jan 15 [16:44:08] Being boned is a good thing or a bad thing? [16:44:26] if there's any coding at all I can get done now, that's better -- now is something of a lull at school. [16:44:31] Ashlee: depends on who it's by :-) [16:44:39] early january, we're gonna start trying to ramp up UX testing and push soylent threads to smaller wikis that want it (translate, etc.) [16:45:06] that gives us time to make changes and such before we run a pilot on en in late february. [16:45:13] Soylent threads? [16:45:23] love this new name [16:45:24] a joke nickname for this version. [16:45:44] This is with the avatars and other useless features? [16:46:01] that's a nice name. [16:46:08] we were saying that "Liquid" wasn't the right word, so we started joking and it went to "Humanist" and then "Soylent" [16:46:10] Ashlee: it's the redesigned version. [16:46:23] that's why you don't get invited to the prom or any discussions, mzm. [16:46:25] I swear WMF projects are either really close, or directly underneath a really large bridge [16:46:26] right there. [16:46:37] *Ashlee presses jorm's "THANKS" button. [16:46:42] So convenient. [16:46:45] you don't try to start a conversation; you try to end them. [16:47:11] i honestly don't care; i'm just telling you that you're far more likely to have an impact if you begin constructively. [16:47:17] Who's idea was the "thanks" button? [16:47:20] Whose [16:47:32] it doesn't matter, but i'll take your venom. [16:47:39] It does matter. [16:47:41] That's why I'm asking. [16:47:43] no, it doesn't. [16:47:52] can we not have a war here, kthx? [16:47:53] Well, community development is supposed to be transparent. [16:48:05] I think there are like 100 pages of text on wikitech-l that say as much. [16:48:11] i'm the one who put it in the documents so go ahead and yell at me. [16:48:36] if i didn't think it was an idea worth examining, i'd not have put it there. [16:48:49] Well, +1 for transparency, I guess. [16:48:56] It's such a great idea nobody will stand behind it. [16:49:10] i think lots of people will, but i don't want to speak for anyone else. [16:49:14] Ashlee: I think it's a good idea. [16:49:18] i like it. [16:49:18] werdna: Why's that? [16:49:47] RobH: I can't tell if you're making a Facebook joke or being serious. [16:50:24] jorm: The reason it's important to know who's pushing an idea is so that you know who to look to for justification for the idea. [16:50:38] i actually like it. if someone writes something in a discussion thread, and I think its constructive to the discussion thread, I enjoy that there is a simply way for me to show appreciation for the contribution without agreeing or disagreeing with the person's viewpoint in detail. [16:50:41] If it's all by proxy, I can't really ask you to justify someone else's idea. [16:50:42] I really don't want to get derailed by a full-scale discussion of the merits of various features right now, because Brandon and I were in the middle of a planning conversation before you interrupted it. But in brief -- it's a good way for people to give a "+1" to a post without actually posting. [16:50:42] you don't have to look any further than the strategy wiki. [16:50:59] jorm: can we get back to what we were talking about? [16:51:07] sure. [16:51:28] so, when are you going to be in SF? [16:51:31] jorm: so right now I'm working on some obviously broken things, like reply counting, so on. [16:51:33] RobH: Sounds a bit lazy and noisy. :-) [16:51:43] January 15 [16:51:50] how long? [16:52:01] until fosdem, so 2.5 weeks or thereabouts [16:52:06] i disagree with you, sorry [16:52:40] Ashlee: FTLOF, let them get back to work [16:52:54] i'm putting it down until early february, then. [16:52:59] Ryan_Lane: Oh simmer down over there. [16:53:02] yeah [16:53:14] alright. [16:53:24] first few days of feb [16:53:41] do you want me to go through all LQ bugs and apply importance to them? [16:54:06] hrm. our bugzilla would be useful if it included a FIX_TARGET keyword. [16:54:08] jorm: other than obvious bugs, what backend stuff can I do? I'm actually trying to find more things to do at the moment [16:54:15] jorm: milestone? [16:54:18] Ashlee: people complain that we don't get enough done, and that we use secret channels. If we constantly get inturrupted, it makes things difficult (my last comment on the subject) [16:54:24] the infinite scrolling system is the big ticket item. [16:54:43] but i have some more behavioral work to do on that. [16:54:46] jorm: yes, importances would be helpful. I'm happy to work through bugs with you to help. [16:54:56] we're going to have to do preferences about that. per-page preferences, in fact. [16:55:10] hmm? [16:55:30] that sounds stupid, but here's why: "Pokemon" v. "Barack Obama" v. "Mike Godwin" v. "WP:AN" [16:56:00] what per-page preferences? [16:56:07] there's about five usecases worth of traffic that have to be considered. [16:56:43] well, on a small page, we may want 10 threads at a time. but on something massive, we may want to display a TOC of 100 and NO full threads. [16:56:54] mmm [16:56:59] does it have to be user-set? [16:56:59] make sense? [16:57:09] no, i think admins can do it. [16:57:28] it would be a "set for everyone" and not local to the user. [16:57:37] still, can't we come up with something computational? [16:57:41] I think fixing up ?action=info would be perfect for this. [16:58:14] show at least 10 threads, plus up to 100 from the last 7 days -- or something [16:58:22] you mean, "if thread count > 500 then diplaymode = foo" type stuff? [16:58:24] Ashlee: how so? [16:58:37] jorm: well, more nuanced than that, but that kind of idea [16:58:47] werdna: You could put the LQT-specific settings there. [16:59:03] Which would be 100 times better than some magic word hackery. [16:59:12] Threads per-page, things like that. [16:59:18] there is no action=info afaict [16:59:18] right. i wasn't assuming that pattern, but the ability to do so. [16:59:46] the problem with making threads-per-page an url parameter is that we may run into caching issues. [16:59:53] There is, it's just disabled. [17:00:06] There are some other good things that could go in there as well. [17:00:10] right, a url parameter isn't a good idea. [17:00:30] Err, you'd add a link presumably. [17:00:33] Ashlee: maybe. implementation details can probably come later though. [17:00:49] no, I mean ?threacount=10 or whatever [17:00:57] Ah. [17:00:58] to set the setting, not to get the settings page [17:01:10] jorm: Generally I'm averse to making users / admins do more work [17:01:15] me too. [17:01:34] so I'd like to think we can make things a bit clever on the backend to handle the different traffic patterns [17:01:40] which is why i think that that the "mark threads as closed" thing is DOA. [17:02:06] Being able to lock threads is important. [17:02:11] i feel for people on that, but it would require either a) sysops to do it; or b) a new privilige bit. [17:02:21] I don't like the idea of locking threads, actually [17:02:40] i'm not sure i agree with you there but i'd like to hear your reasoning. [17:02:54] maybe automatically give a warning if somebody tries to post to one dormant for more than a month or so [17:03:11] *THAT* i absolutely want to do, and we've talked about it before. [17:03:23] There are use-cases where threads need to be resolved to avoid beating the dead horse. [17:03:45] Or letting heated issues get more heated. [17:04:09] well, it is possible to lock threads currently in lqt, it's just a bit buried. [17:04:16] I don't think it should be used habitually, though [17:04:30] I agree. I think closing is silly; having the ability to lock when necessary isn't. [17:04:30] not in the sense of "once something's dealt with on a noticeboard, lock it" [17:04:36] Right. [17:04:51] but in the sense of "thread full of trolls, lock it to make them go away" [17:05:08] I'm a bit wary of warning people about older threads. [17:05:29] nah, that's a tried, true, easily understood win. [17:05:37] It's actually pretty common for people to comment on old threads. [17:05:41] Sometimes years later. [17:05:59] A lot of quieter talk pages have this. [17:06:03] i wasn't thinking about doing it to everything, but to programmatically handle it. [17:06:26] If you're sorting by post timestamp desc, it's going to be rare for people to trip across the older threads anyway. [17:06:33] I don't know if a warning is really necessary. [17:06:40] like, you know, pretty much . . . EVERYTHING . . . with wikipedia, these are problems that don't exist for anyone else. [17:07:07] well, that's why it's a warning rather than an error [17:07:13] werdna: The other settings/info you could put into a fixed ?action=info would be current page protection settings. [17:07:34] Warning people when they're making perfectly valid and fine comments isn't very nice. [17:07:41] Have you seen some of the "warnings" en.wiki uses? :-) [17:07:47] They're pretty frightening. [17:08:06] well yes, but for posting to much older threads.. [17:09:14] I'm trying to find an example, but talk pages are all WikiProject tags. [17:09:19] Very little actual discussion. :-/ [17:10:06] I think it's something that needs discussion / user testing / research, anyways. [17:10:52] jorm: anyway, we were talking about other backend work that I can usefully do in the next week or three [17:11:02] yeah. [17:11:13] i'm skimming the buglist now. [17:11:57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Girl_Interrupted_at_her_Music # Posted a year later. I kind of like the timelessness of wiki pages... :-) [17:12:36] andrew: i'm going to take some of these bugs from you. ones that are going to fall into redesign and require me to look at them first. [17:12:43] sure, shoot [17:14:16] i have to call into the scrum for article assessment. [17:14:33] if you can stay awake for 5 minutes, i'll let you know if we are gonna have that 3 pm call. [17:14:43] ok [17:15:14] just to warn you, it's now 3:30 and i'd have to wake up at 7:30-7:45 to get in at 3pm [17:15:39] are you fine with me just going over some stuff with this and spamming you with mail about it? [17:15:42] damn cough has been keeping me up :( [17:15:44] yeah [17:15:45] if so, just go to bed and i'll handle it. [17:16:01] with or without the call later today? [17:16:03] i'm WFH today so i'm less likely to get snapped into 400 meetings. [17:16:04] without. [17:16:09] ok [17:16:10] just sleep and get well. [17:16:14] thanks [17:16:37] :-) [17:16:46] adam_miller? alolita? reedy? ping? [17:34:57] Reedy's not on IRC. [17:37:48] He's on vacation in LA [17:38:38] hehe LA [17:38:48] less than 3 years in san francisco and i've already become a norcal snob [17:40:40] yeah, i know he's in LA, but he's been checking in. [17:41:19] go. to. bed. andrew. [17:46:18] I want to be on vacation in LA. :-( [17:53:39] TREVOR PARSCAL [17:53:45] I have two requests of thee. [17:53:52] shoot [17:54:17] 1) Alolita and I need a browser matrix for AA testing. I am guessing you know where such an artifact is kept. [17:54:32] and 2) Do you have a full hex listing of the colors in vector's palatte? [17:54:40] or can grep such a thing for me? [17:59:07] 1) what does Alcoholics Anonymous have to do with web-browsers [17:59:14] heh. [17:59:15] 2) Yes, I can build one for you quickly [17:59:20] excellent. [17:59:51] i've a couple desires for that. one is that there's a bug request to add a visited color for external links, which i think is a fair issue. [18:00:08] the other is that i want to start working on a more . . . robust . . . color palatte. [18:03:04] anti-aliasing maybe [18:03:09] ascii art? [18:03:42] article assessment. [18:04:33] 'achelor of arts [18:05:30] jorm: A robust color palette would be nice. Lots of things are using Vector-like themes (Bugzilla, WordPress, etc.). [18:06:04] the palettes i was given were . . . insufficient. . . for our needs. [18:06:12] or inaccurate. [18:06:34] since one of my goals for the year is "Build a Style Guide", this is a good place to start. [18:07:08] There are some design docs on WMFwiki for things like the logo. [18:07:19] Visual identification guidelines or some such. [18:07:29] That stuff could probably go on Meta-Wiki, TBH. [18:07:40] i've got a copy of jay's styleguide someplace. [18:07:56] this guide would have a different focus and audience. [18:08:26] Aye. [18:08:40] it will be more along the lines of "here is how help tooltips should behave" and "you can use this color for alerts" and "avoid using javascript popups." [18:08:42] It'd be nice if some of it were centralized, though. And open to editing. That was my point about WMFwiki. [18:08:56] it will be on mediawiki. [18:09:03] Cool, cool. [18:09:15] but the problem i have is that there is a difference between MWF guidelines and MW guidelines. [18:09:21] *WMF [18:09:32] err. yeah. WMF. [18:10:36] if a handful of people who don't understand color theory want, for some reason, to use a bunch of yellows for fonts and such, they may do so on their own shit. but i'll be damned if i let them write the official WMF guidelines on colo. [18:10:38] color. [18:12:09] Yellow on white forever. [18:30:31] jorm: http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7456/vectorcolors.png [18:30:52] dude, you're awesome. [18:31:06] you just whipped that up? [18:31:11] yes [18:31:17] and i emailed you the PSD [18:31:21] now you can own it! [18:31:27] i'm going to use this as my base and start from there. [18:31:31] *TrevorParscal washes his hands of it [18:31:34] for WMF palatte. [18:31:44] i think we should come up with some awesome code name. [18:32:03] heh. these are not web safe. [18:32:19] well, 0645ad isn't, at first glance. [18:32:20] http://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/Staff_Lunch_SignUp [18:32:23] (scroll down) [18:32:38] jorm: web-safe... [18:32:45] you can have mine. [18:32:49] i'm not there. [18:33:02] OK, I know we've both been doing web-work for a while, but we need to let web-safe go [18:33:07] i agree. [18:33:09] nobody has 256 color displays [18:33:15] not even cell phones [18:33:19] but you KNOW that someone like teofilo is going to shit bricks. [18:33:20] not even wrist-watches [18:33:38] let's stay focused on the W3C accessibility standards [18:34:01] besides, worst case scenario, if you were to use a 256 color display, you would see some half-toning [18:34:09] most web-safe colors are ugly [18:34:16] i'm fine with dropping it and taking whatever heat comes but i don't want i I don't [18:34:24] I will personally fight anyone who complains [18:34:44] ' [18:34:45] with the most powerful weapon in the world [18:34:52] the human mind... [18:35:31] scren froze. [18:35:48] augh! now it's back. [18:35:54] jorm: speaking of giving up on old standards... stop using terminal for chat [18:36:03] http://colloquy.info/ [18:36:08] embrace the future jorm [18:36:13] it will love you back [18:36:21] NEVAR! [18:36:41] I have been using screen/ircii combos since 1995! I will not stop now. [18:37:01] actually, it's useful for me when WFH 'cause it's smaller real estate. [18:37:38] really? Dude, you have a 20+" monitor on your desk [18:38:00] and you could probably make a good case for a larger one being you are the only person on staff with "designer" in your title [18:38:14] *TrevorParscal votes jorm gets a 27" LCD [18:38:28] *jorm votes! [18:38:40] screen real-estate is simply not a scarce commodity [18:38:43] i'm at home today, and don't have a huge monitor. i've got two laptops, instead. [18:39:25] *TrevorParscal votes jorm discontinues being a cheap-skate and buys a monitor for home [18:39:33] running pshop on a screen the size of that macbook is just a nightmare. [18:39:44] i have one, just no mac connector. [18:40:07] jorm, I'm totally commandeering you lunch signup [18:40:15] you should grab one at the office, we have loads [18:40:40] i told you that you could. i forgot about it. [18:40:50] i have to help the woman move some stuff around. [18:41:02] yeah, that's a good plan, actually. [18:41:10] http://office.wikimedia.org/wiki/Staff_Lunch_SignUp [18:41:11] grabbing a connector from the office. [18:41:40] oh! i got announced on twitter last night. [18:41:43] *jorm so proud. [18:51:03] Colloquy is a bit quirky, esp. for people who know IRC well. [18:51:10] I've been using MacIrssi lately, which is pretty nice. [18:52:00] the value of using screen for me is that i'm never logged out. i'm 100% available, and i can access it from any computer. [18:52:37] Right. I use a bouncer for that. [18:53:06] Concurrent connections, whee. [18:54:54] sucks i just had to dupe a bug with the number 23456 [19:33:29] several people complain, that the global switchback doesn't work and throws error message about database error - is that currently known issue? [19:36:02] I've heard about the errors; it's usually successful though. [19:36:16] It's a known issue; I don't know if there's a bug filed about it. [19:36:20] You can ask Roan about it. [19:36:36] I think Domas might have diagnosed it down to a MySQL open transactions bug. [20:27:27] Yeah that's still broken, I need to poke at it [20:50:37] RoanKattouw, now I'm noticing that it isn't working: on wikis where I created an account previously, I'm still on vector but there's no "take me back" button; on wikis where I create a new account automatically there's the button. [21:04:33] You're still on Vector but there's no take me back button? That sounds weird [21:04:47] I mean there's logic in the code saying that if you're on Vector, you get a take me back button [22:12:11] gonna drop offline for a bit.