[06:41:08] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 closed pull request #21: attempt automatic reminders set (06master...06Reception123-patch-2) 02https://git.io/v7oUX [17:11:53] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Pix1234 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v7PTF [17:11:53] 13ZppixBot-Source/06master 144103a6e 15Devin/Zppix: Delete default.db as its now in .gitignore [17:15:02] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Pix1234 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v7Pk0 [17:15:03] 13ZppixBot-Source/06master 14b92af6d 15zppix1: Revert "Delete default.db as its now in .gitignore"... [17:30:29] .in 3h Release v2 of ZppixBot (unless major errors occour) [17:30:30] Talking to your own AI bot again, are you Zppix? [17:30:31] Zppix: Okay, I will set the reminder for: 2017-08-08 - 20:30:30UTC [17:30:49] .setchanneltz America/Chicago [17:30:49] Zppix: I now have ##Zppix-Wikipedia in the America/Chicago time zone. [18:01:28] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v7POJ [18:01:28] 13ZppixBot-Source/06master 1424cacc5 15Reception123: Create RELEASE-NOTES-v2 [18:38:56] [ANNOUNCEMENT] The second production-ready version of ZppixBot was just released. Check it out on GitHub, https://github.com/Pix1234/ZppixBot-Source/releases/tag/v2! -Reception123 [18:39:05] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 tagged 06v2 at 06master: 02https://git.io/v7Pnq [18:43:22] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 created 06Reception123-patch-1 (+1 new commit): 02https://git.io/v7Pny [18:43:23] 13ZppixBot-Source/06Reception123-patch-1 14482a4e4 15Reception123: add version.py... [18:43:31] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 opened pull request #22: add version.py (06master...06Reception123-patch-1) 02https://git.io/v7Pn9 [18:44:31] [13ZppixBot-Source] 15Reception123 pushed 1 new commit to 06Reception123-patch-1: 02https://git.io/v7PnN [18:44:31] 13ZppixBot-Source/06Reception123-patch-1 1475ee6d2 15Reception123: Update version.py [20:30:32] Zppix: Release v2 of ZppixBot (unless major errors occour) [20:50:53] Drewmutt, hello, can I help you with something? [20:51:21] StormyWaves: Hi there! Long time no see! [20:51:45] Drewmutt, yes. It's a surprise to see you here though. What brings you by today? [20:52:31] Well, Zippix came by -en, and I wanted to try to clear up some things, but it's okay if I'm not welcome. [20:52:41] go ahead [20:52:51] but remember this channel is logged [20:53:07] Zppix: That's fine, and I'm really happy StormyWaves is in here too. [20:53:26] Drewmutt, you can say anything you want to say. But remember, I don't care what the people -en could possibly say about criticizing me. [20:53:34] ^ but i do [20:53:41] StormyWaves: Believe it or not, I stand up for you too. [20:55:01] Drewmutt, yes, was there something else? [20:55:03] StormyWaves, I do so because as a person you're one of the most friendly I can think of. [20:55:21] Drewmutt, if I may, I'm going to presume this is something about my AfC comments as part of Reviews, is it? [20:55:46] StormyWaves: Actually no, I know it's easy to draw lines in these kind of things. [20:56:03] I see, continue then of course. [20:56:55] StormyWaves: I guess, since, I consider people on both "sides" as friends, I thought maybe I could be some kind of conduit? [20:57:17] Drewmutt, you're welcome to say anything that's on your mind, of course. [20:58:06] StormyWaves: You're obviously a mentor to me, and truthfully I miss our exchanges in -helpers -help, etc. [20:58:29] Yes, and I understand if you were influenced by my methods of helping of course. [20:59:46] StormyWaves: It's just since you've been more absent (for whatever reasons) you can imagine I get a lot feedback from the other side, which I try to defend against. [21:00:53] StormyWaves: I can tell that you feel threatened, or something, because you're not your usual happy self, which I guess is understandable. [21:01:38] drewmutt It wouldnt be so bad if people such as primefac wouldnt just go out their way just to attempt to prevent st doing from what he does the best at [21:01:49] and realise that if anyone is doing harm its other people not st [21:01:52] Drewmutt, well, I'll be honest. I was only ever at -help because I had good faith in helping, but obviously one of the causes of my rapid name-changing there, was how hostile it could become. I never wanted my actual username associated with that, once I knew how people could be there, including people upset about their declined draft. [21:02:15] so what he does reviews that not all people agree with? its a wiki on the internet where people will have different opinions [21:02:21] thats just how wikipedia works [21:02:31] StormyWaves: Oh, I had no idea that's why. It was because of the helpees? [21:02:39] Yes, strongly because of it. [21:03:01] StormyWaves: Oh, that's sad, I can see how that could beat you down. [21:04:51] StormyWaves: Probably not surprisingly, people have a lot of gripes, and really I was having a had time squaring it up, because that didn't seem like the ST I know. [21:04:54] Drewmutt, yes, to be fair, you were the only one who didn't regularly become either an attacker there. [21:05:37] Basically, I did what I did there, which was help some good-faith people learn how to use WP, and then also to explain to the advertisers, why it wasn't acceptable. To be honest, I liked your method of similarly laying this out to them. [21:06:47] StormyWaves: Heh, I learned that from you. I didn't get involved because I felt, for better or worse, it was addressing the "problem" from the entirely wrong end. I was more interested in how you were doing, feeling, etc. [21:07:03] I would of reached out to you earlier, but I didn't even know you were still on IRC :) [21:07:43] Ah, I see. Well, it's nice to see someone refreshing. I'd hate to think you succumbed to their hateful ways too. Good people are hard to find, after all. [21:08:31] StormyWaves: No, no, I judge people by their character, not by tossing policy around. [21:09:17] StormyWaves: And I know this can come across as me covertly trying to infiltrate, or whatever, but I know this is a public room, and I have no problem defending what I say in here. [21:09:51] Well, I have no objection to you coming here, of course. Your kind words are appreciated of course. [21:10:03] ^_^ [21:10:15] StormyWaves: So, I guess.. like when did this start? [21:10:15] In all honesty, if I had the choice of coming back to -help, I still wouldn't. At least not until it was significantly better. [21:10:26] Ah, this channel? It's been like this for well over 6 months or so. [21:10:40] drewmutt your welcome to stay here too if u wish [21:10:56] Zppix: Thanks buddy, I like you guys installed a couch in here, comfy. [21:11:02] Ha. [21:11:28] drewmutt its complete with 5 bots :P [21:11:31] StormyWaves: I guess what I was getting at was when was the turning point between happy cheery ST to now? [21:11:33] Well, all of people at -help, you're absolutely welcome, since you've convinced me alone you still remember my genuine spirit. That's what matters. [21:11:39] why i have so many bots in here well im a little nuts :P [21:11:49] Battle bots! [21:12:10] Drewmutt, ah, describe what 'now' is or me. You mean something specifically at WP or because I never returned to -help? [21:13:08] StormyWaves: Heh, good point. Well, from my perspective things started getting bumpy around the "Have you a question" thing, or whatever that was. At least that's when I started seeing you around less. [21:13:48] honestly have you a question isnt that rude or anything, i mean its just straight to the point [21:14:22] Drewmutt, ah, well, as the logs back then will show, there were specifically some people who were crossing a line with their hostility. [21:14:31] I don't disagree, I'm just saying that's when things seems to change, from my perspective. [21:14:39] StormyWaves: You're talking other helpers? [21:14:43] Yes. [21:15:12] StormyWaves: I do remember a couple spats :/ [21:16:47] For example, in all honesty, there were at least a half-dozen instances of Huon crossing the line. That was one. Fortunately, as you know, I kept my cool a lot of times. But it simply got old after awhile. [21:17:32] For example, I'm aware you still help at -help, and compared to anyone else, you were a good fit since you took well from my own ways, such as explaining what could be accepted, etc. [21:18:18] StormyWaves: Thanks. Actually, I think Waggie is also really good too, in that regard. [21:18:33] drewmutt but waggie is not exactly in favor of st [21:18:37] Well, he was one of the emphasized hostile ones by the end actually. [21:18:49] brb [21:18:57] StormyWaves: True, but judging people by their own merits and all that. [21:19:10] For example, I don't have access to the -helpers logs now, but he made it clear he had some grudge against me by taking some things onto WP instead. [21:19:40] StormyWaves: And maybe he does, but it doesn't make him a better or worse helper, obviously. [21:20:02] To explain, -helpers was even a place where good-faith wasn't encouraged. For example, it seems that's simply a place where the hotheads (including other helpers) aren't taken care of when they cross a line. [21:20:58] StormyWaves: Yeah, I remember it was a lot more hot back when you were in there (not because of you) just seemed like a different time. [21:21:37] lets admit it was hot cause i was in there xD [21:21:40] Clearly, there's the unfortunate case of people shooting off their own real life situations online instead, and that clearly applied there too. [21:22:36] StormyWaves: I guess what I don't get is like.. Okay, and sorry, only example that comes to mind, but if people told me "Hey use a diff. intro to helpee's" I'd be like sure, if it makes you happy, why not? Now that might be because I'm still a newb, and maybe because I assume everyone knows better :) [21:23:49] Well, as the logs will show back then, I was even using different phrases, but the honest truth is that Huon still continued advancing. That was enough to show he wanted to make it overly personal on a hostile level. [21:25:27] StormyWaves: I gotcha. So, like, if you had to guess. Why would he want to be hostile toward you? [21:27:04] Well, obviously, he didn't intentionally want to harass me, but instead he obviously was upset about something else, probably in real life or something and he let it all out here on IRC. [21:27:49] Well, that's obviously unfair. [21:28:19] Basically, when you think how the 2 active ops there were at -help, they were Huon and NotASpy, both of had crossed the line with me. So, that contributed to the fact things weren't going to be treated fairly. [21:29:12] And, only because I wasn't terribly involved, what was the line crossed? Endlessly gettin' on ya about stuff? [21:29:42] Yes, and over trivially minor things, Or things that were misunderstood on their part. [21:29:50] Cameron11598, hello, can I help you with something here? [21:29:54] Nope [21:30:07] Also G'day [21:30:12] Haven't seen you around in a while [21:30:37] Ah, cheers. [21:31:06] Cameron11598, since you're here. I'll also explain if you never saw me at -help. Basically, I think you'd agree -helpers is not a place where people, even the ones good-faith helping, feel welcome. [21:31:36] For example, I know I told you about Scottyoak's previous hostile moments, including ones he actually instigated them, not me. I definitely never wanted to deal with that again. [21:31:36] StormyWaves I strongly disagree with that but w/e to each their own [21:32:03] Cameron11598, well, as for Scottyoak, it was not only 1 instance but several. [21:32:37] Scottyoak? I don't think I've ever actually seen them talk when I've been around. (Actually at my computer) that being said I don't keep as good of an eye on helpers as I probably should. [21:33:03] Well, that one time I mentioned what happened to you, it was all in that time and about their. [21:33:40] Basically, I would've continued helping in -help mainly to discourage the advertisers or to help a good-faith person on a Draft. But not while I'm going to be in a room where hostility is not handled properly. [21:35:19] StormyWaves Speaking of which I don't think you ever responded to my message on wiki? [21:35:21] Cameron11598, basically, I fully understand IRC is IRC, and so anyone is welcome even if they act like a dick. But that's not the type of place I'll visit at all. [21:36:34] Cameron11598, yes I saw it but I didn't think a reply was necessary. You shouldn't take it personal if I didn't reply. [21:37:03] StormyWaves: This is just from what I saw, which isn't much, but from what I saw, it wasn't so much people had an issue with anything you did, just your lack of responsiveness came off a bit sour. Just my guess. Would it surprise you to know that a lot of folks would welcome you back to -help? [21:37:06] StormyWaves Generally if I don't see it archived or a response I assume I'm either being ignored or a message got lost in the clutter of a talk page [21:37:42] But to each their own [21:39:50] StormyWaves: I don't want that to come off as, oh you shoulda done this, I'm in no position for that, no would I want to hear it, I just think it's fair to try to express both sides, as I try to express yours as well. [21:40:37] Cameron11598, I did change a few of my Draft comments though. [21:42:10] StormyWaves: Any thoughts? I'm happy (and honestly quite used to) being wrong. [21:45:32] StormyWaves: Anywho, maybe you're busy, heh, I guess I should be too. Anywho, I, and the others welcome you back to -help anytime you feel comfortable, and I'm proud to be stomping around AfC with ya these days. [21:45:36] Drewmutt, about what? I'm sorry, I was AFK for a moment. [21:45:49] StormyWaves: No worries, just read the above, any comments welcome. [21:45:51] I see. Well, you're a good person to know at -help, but that alone simply won't be enough. [21:46:09] Because it wouldn't fully solve why -help was a hostile place in the first place. [21:46:34] Of course, I like that your reviews because they aim accurately and you explain, that's good of course. I simply hope you can continue the legacy of good faith at -help. :) [21:48:13] StormyWaves: From talking to the other people there, I think they'd all welcome you back, they'd just like more feedback from ya is all. In whatever capacity I can help, I'd love to. [21:49:03] Ah, unfortunately, that's not the impression I'm getting though. For example, there's nothing on Huon's part that suggests he views me as a good-faith person on WP. I wouldn't think it any differently for IRC> [21:50:56] Drewmutt, because to be honest, if you were familiar with Primefac's recent behavior with me recently, regardless of anything on it. He was wildly inappropriate against me. He never acted any differently at IRC and that's another factor in my leaving. Next, Chrissymad equally started by her comments at me at the Draft:Chloe + Isabel MfD. [21:51:06] That unfortunately is enough to make me not want to reconsider on -help. [21:53:20] Drewmutt, in all transparency, and I never mentioned this to you sooner, but when you first started at -helpers and -help, Primefac had said some really nasty things when you left the channel one day. I'm sure the IRC ops archive logs may still have them. It's not worth anything, but I thought I'd let you know, since I hide no secrets. [21:53:51] StormyWaves: That's fine, I had a lot to complain about, heh probably still do. [21:54:31] But obviously, I can improve on anything that isn't brought to my attention. I try to be receptive when it is tho. [21:54:33] *I can't [21:55:08] It doesn't bother me. If someone complains about me behind my back and say "well, he's not getting any better after telling him nothing" heh, what can I do about that? [21:55:22] For example, I'll be honest and say I'll confront anyone with whatever I say to them to their face, and not the other way around. I would easily tell Huon what I think, but as he once said himself: "I don't care". [21:56:10] Yeah, a stone wall is frustrating. You can slam your head on it or walk around it, I suppose. [21:57:30] So, sure, I could ignore Huon if I ever returned to -help, but obviously there's better things to do than have a thorn in your side. [21:58:35] StormyWaves: Fair enough. Well, either way, I'm super happy to see you're still on IRC, and Zppix thanks for the warm welcome! I'll stick around if you guys had any other thoughts! [21:58:51] Cheers. [21:59:47] BTW Drewmutt, I'm not sure if you saw the comments at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Colegio_Amaranto ? [21:59:48] [WIKIPEDIA] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Colegio Amaranto | "..." [22:00:07] StormyWaves: Oh, I did.. I was just about to get to that. [22:00:36] ..although begrudgingly (sigh) schooloutcomes.. [22:01:31] Drewmutt, while I understand some people disagree, I obviously put advertising, especially paid ones, on the priority scale instead :) [22:01:45] And we know there's a lot of those around the neighborhood. [22:03:15] StormyWaves: Heh, and increasing, seemingly.. https://www.upwork.com/job/Looking-for-writer-who-can-create-our-company-page-Wikipedia_~0169918e2366d581ba/ [22:03:53] I've seen quite a few, and some of the still active SPIs are a good example, including previously banned spammers coming back :) [22:04:04] Gotta pay rent. [22:04:23] Unfortunately, in their mind, it's at the expense bill of WP articles :P [22:06:40] We should make them a fake Wikipedia, so they post all their poo there. [22:06:58] If only they used places like Wikia and those independent websites instead :P [22:07:23] After all, those places never have any formal policies on what they accept, after all, ha. [22:07:37] Well, if Wikia had the same SEO results, I'm sure they would. [22:07:59] That explains it of course.