[00:05:30] rillke, https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T122629 [00:10:42] is there an established way to cite Linux man pages? [00:11:46] robla: it must be hard with PHP projects, but it's not like Wikimedia can really move off PHP... [00:13:23] ptrz: you're probably right. we aren't likely to move off of PHP anytime soon. why do you bring that up, though? [00:15:53] MaxSem: Is en.wikipedia not using HHVM? [00:16:14] Every wiki on WMF except wikitech is [00:16:16] it is [00:16:18] robla: there just aren't many young devs (read: devs with free time) that are excited about PHP [00:16:48] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main%20page&action=edit [00:16:50] works ^^ [00:18:26] ptrz: how about young (or old) devs with free time that are excited about working on top 10 website using a language common among other top websites? [00:18:56] robla: yeah, I mean, true. But people are fickle and like learning things they find fun in their free time. [00:19:15] That's just the only reason I don't contribute, and I doubt I'm alone. [00:19:18] There's a lot of people that have learnt PHP for fun in their free time to contribute to MediaWiki et al [00:19:25] not saying that there's necessarily a solution [00:19:42] or that it's exceptionless. Or even that strong of a factor. [00:19:53] You're right though [00:20:01] A lot of people go "oooh shiny" [00:20:16] Or "php sucks"... Because they've done a bit of a C++ etc [00:20:20] Without any real basis [00:20:39] (yes, we know, PHP sucks, but being developers in it, gives us more of a grounding to say that ;)) [00:23:35] I mean, I'm likely going to grad school to study programming languages :) [00:23:44] so yeah, I understand both sides of the debate [00:24:11] Most degrees etc usually only touch on a couple of languages [00:24:31] ptrz: are you familiar with Haskell? [00:24:37] If it wasn't clear, I mean that my research topic is going to be languages, compilers, etc. [00:24:46] robla: lol yeah, I started off as a Haskell dweeb [00:24:55] have become decreasingly enamored with it [00:25:11] although it presents a lot of very cool theoretical features [00:25:31] Bryan O'Sullivan was one of the managers at Facebook that was involved in Hack, if I understand things correctly [00:25:55] Reedy: but I think a lot of people make the somewhat reasonable decision "PHP doesn't seem like a fantastic or fun language and I don't see much point in learning it, so... I guess I won't" [00:26:11] a lot of young people, specifically. Especially as of the past few years. [00:26:13] ptrz: are you familiar with Hack? [00:26:27] and those people now cannot contribute to wikimedia [00:26:29] We don't seem to struggle finding people to do GCI and GSOC [00:27:09] robla: I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere. I think I might have found its presentation a little amateurish and so I didn't look farther. [00:27:17] http://hacklang.org/ [00:27:41] Reedy: that's true. But I'd argue that that's partially because PHP is more popular outside of the US and Western Europe. [00:27:56] and many GSoC students are from those places [00:27:58] it's basically the "version of PHP that doesn't suck quite as much" version [00:28:13] I did GSoC last summer, but that's anecdotal [00:28:21] (with Pidgin, not Wikimedia) [00:28:37] robla: oh, this isn't what I was thinking of. This looks cool. [00:28:56] Guess PHP7 is heading in that direcion too [00:31:15] ptrz: If only "rewrite mediawiki in this weeks $coolLanguage" was an easy task :) [00:31:23] yeah, that I know [00:31:24] ptrz: this is why I brought up Bryan O'Sullivan: http://www.serpentine.com/blog/2014/03/28/where-credit-belongs-for-hack/ [00:31:25] :) [00:31:43] especially after having worked on big C projects. We get the same treatment as PHP people in many circles. [00:32:07] I was just pointing out the PHP problem because I think (solution or not) it is a factor in how many devs Wikimedia can find. [00:34:07] I think PHP today has the same reputation as Javascript did in 2004, but I think the Hack and HHVM folks are providing some much-needed leadership [00:34:26] robla: the question is just whether that stuff will make its way back to vanilla PHP [00:34:39] I suspect it will, but that path is usually long, arduous, and much-delayed [00:34:42] ptrz: you mean Zend's PHP? [00:35:00] for the C equivalent, see Cyclone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_%28programming_language%29 [00:35:04] Weren't Zend bought by someone recently? [00:35:11] robla: not sure what Zend's PHP is? [00:35:19] Zend is the "canonical" php [00:35:37] What most people consider php when they talk about php [00:35:48] Reedy: Rogue Wave bought them [00:36:02] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Wave_Software [00:37:38] heh, I wasn't paying attention when that happened [00:37:50] oh, I didn't know that it wasn't more formally specified than that [00:38:27] Ironically, I drove through Louisville, CO around the time of that announcement [00:39:38] ptrz: there is a language spec of a sort these days; it was reverse engineered by the HHVM team at Facebook and then given to php.net for maintenance/extension [01:20:56] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Splarka/PHP [01:48:10] legoktm: thanks for that - it was a great read :) [01:57:22] :-) [07:02:00] http://postimg.org/image/8gbnhdd91/ [07:02:10] What? I can't use templates? [07:53:08] Zhaofeng_Li, it has problems with a few, i think. You might try searching through the existing tasks, and file a new one if nothing looks appropriate. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/maniphest/query/itVxEigzGWlJ/ [10:51:29] Our wiki farm is in need of SyntaxHighlight_Geshi only when it's enabled it causes HHVM segfaults (https://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/issues/169). Does someone have ideas how to fix this? [11:24:22] Hi, is there anyone here who might be able to help us? We´re experiencing problems with https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Labels. I seem to be unable to connect to the server, and a user is getting the message ¨waiting for labels.wmflabs.org¨ which seems to be offline (error 502). Is it something that needs to be looked at, or do we just have to wait it out? [11:25:46] Woodcutterty: Try asking at #wikimedia-labs [11:25:54] OK, thanks. [20:36:03] hi folks! fyi, I'm planning on continuing with the routine Wednesday IRC office hour on Arch stuff at 2pm PST/22:00 UTC on #wikimedia-office Details here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E131 [20:36:17] that's 90 minutes from now