[00:43:17] <haha>	 im back
[00:43:23] <haha>	 hahahahahahahahahahahahahah
[00:43:56] <haha>	 well you arent getting rid of me so lets talk
[00:44:06] <haha>	 !ops
[00:44:10] <ori>	 James_F: ^
[00:44:21] <haha>	 how are you?
[00:44:25] * slakr eyerolls
[00:44:27] <haha>	 im good
[00:45:17] <haha>	 */me laughs his eyes out
[00:45:32] * haha laughs his eyes yout
[00:45:50] <haha>	 slakr: whay is your pccupation
[00:45:57] <haha>	 im still in college
[00:46:15] <haha>	 i hope to get a job over winter break.
[00:47:15] <haha>	 hello
[00:47:53] <haha>	 !op
[00:48:22] <haha>	 !ops
[00:48:32] <haha>	 how are you?
[00:49:31] <haha>	 !admin how are you?
[00:49:49] <haha>	 !admin im not leaving 
[05:09:15] <comets>	 commons isn't caching images well, new upload overwrite looks the same as the one before it..
[05:12:53] <ori>	 comets: task please!
[05:12:58] <ori>	 i'll escalate
[05:29:48] <comets>	 ori, https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119038
[09:44:42] <comets>	 when u do a google cache of any wiki page, it centrally logs you once it goes to that page, can't be safe right?...maybe wmf can disable "auto logging" via a non-wiki url?
[12:20:04] <Nemo_bis>	 Re https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T118684 , was HHVM updated/changed recently? The last install mentioned on SAL was 2015-10-05.
[12:32:30] <jynus>	 anyone with block rights on zhwiki?
[13:01:31] <Nemo_bis>	 jynus: many; if urgent, ask at #wikimedia-stewards
[13:02:17] <jynus>	 it is ok, I have gone already to #wikimedia-zh and they have been very friendly
[13:49:44] <snitch>	 [[Tech]]; 103.21.166.40; /* commercial use */ new section; https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=14712019&oldid=14701691&rcid=7022401
[13:50:08] <snitch>	 [[Tech]]; Wiki13; Reverted changes by [[Special:Contributions/103.21.166.40|103.21.166.40]] ([[User talk:103.21.166.40|talk]]) to last version by Matiia; https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=14712026&oldid=14712019&rcid=7022403
[16:36:12] <matt_flaschen>	 jynus, can we sync up about https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226544/ (Move Flow ExternalStore entries to separate cluster)?
[16:36:13] <matt_flaschen>	 If now isn't good, could we set a meeting time?
[16:37:50] <jynus>	 tuesday when you start working?
[16:38:20] <jynus>	 I read the script, didn't have enough confidence to +1 (nor to -1)
[16:38:35] <jynus>	 I think the idea was ok
[16:39:07] <matt_flaschen>	 jynus, 7:30 Pacific and later is good.  I can do earlier if needed.
[16:40:04] <jynus>	 matt_flaschen, can you send an invite?
[16:40:13] <jynus>	 I will not remember otherwise
[16:40:37] <jynus>	 I am actually interested on this to move forward
[16:40:39] <matt_flaschen>	 jynus, sure, is that time good for you?
[16:41:01] <jynus>	 check https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T119056
[16:41:29] <matt_flaschen>	 Yep.  Winter is coming...
[16:41:30] <jynus>	 you should be able to see a gap on my calendar jcrespo@
[16:41:34] <matt_flaschen>	 Okay
[17:19:15] <legoktm>	 for those interested, fedora has started using mailman3: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce%40lists.fedoraproject.org/ (cc: cscott, robla)
[17:19:47] * robla looks
[17:30:51] <greg-g>	 legoktm: NEAT!
[17:40:22] * robla emerges from a massive yak shaving expedition set off by exploring the Fedora link
[17:41:56] <greg-g>	 robla: dangerous :)
[17:59:11] * robla start's looking for a link to bd808's blog post from December-ish
[18:00:03] <robla>	 there we go: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/01/29/modernizing-mediawiki-with-libraries/
[18:00:30] * robla works on comment on T119018 that probably references that post
[18:01:24] <Nemo_bis>	 legoktm: and it loads googleapis stuff. :(
[18:02:36] <legoktm>	 oh ugh, I didn't notice because I blocked it >.>
[18:02:48] <legoktm>	     <script src="//ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.10.1/jquery.min.js"></script>
[18:02:49] <legoktm>	     <script>window.jQuery || document.write('<script src="/static/hyperkitty/libs/jquery/jquery-1.10.1.min.js"><\/script>')</script>
[18:02:52] <legoktm>	 that's...weird.
[18:03:15] <legoktm>	 load from google but if that doesn't work load the local copy?
[18:04:58] <Krenair>	 we have some existing bits and pieces loading googleapi stuff
[18:05:28] <Krenair>	 tendril/dbtree
[18:17:10] * robla starts searching for the term of art/Wikipedia article describing the generic class of applications embodied by Composer, npm, etc
[18:24:06] <robla>	 If 2015-11-19 Wikipedia is to be believed, it appears "Application-level package manager" is the term I'm looking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_package_management_systems#Application-level_package_managers
[18:24:22] * robla is feeling dissatisfied with that answer
[18:26:41] <bd808>	 robla: I think that's what I called Composer in the blog post
[18:27:14] <bd808>	 "Composer is a project-local package manager for PHP in the vein of npm, Bundler and virtualenv."
[18:27:27] <bd808>	 I guess I made up my own term :)
[18:28:17] <bd808>	 Composer calls itself a "tool for dependency management"
[18:30:08] <robla>	 bd808: clearly we need to invent one!  :-)
[18:30:21] <robla>	 ...and write the Wikipedia article on the term
[18:30:28] <bd808>	 COI
[18:31:05] <bd808>	 [[Insecure but convenient dependency tracking download tools]]
[18:32:10] <robla>	 it looks like FSF has a horse in this race too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8623762
[18:34:12] <greg-g>	 guix is more of an apt replacement, right?
[18:34:47] <robla>	 ah grasshoppah ... it is so much more!  :-)
[18:35:56] <greg-g>	 I honestly haven't looked too closely, I just glaze over and think 'similar to nixos, moving on' ;)
[18:36:38] <robla>	 greg-g: my reading of things is that guix is trying to make a system where it is practical to do OS-level package management and application-development package management using the same tool
[18:37:29] <robla>	 basically, some of the original vision of HURD, but trying to keep up with the times
[18:38:14] <bd808>	 a universal package manager is just as ridiculous as a universal deployment tool, a universal text editor or a universal bug tracker IMO
[18:39:06] <bd808>	 not all use cases are the same and any attempts to stuff all problems in the same box will fail
[18:41:04] <mobrovac>	 bd808: are you saying vim isn't a universal text editor?
[18:41:05] <mobrovac>	 :P
[18:41:13] <mobrovac>	 s/saying/suggesting/ rather
[18:41:42] <twentyafterfour>	 mobrovac: just as much as emacs is the universal operating system?
[18:41:58] <mobrovac>	 haha
[18:41:58] <bd808>	 mobrovac: :) opinions vary
[18:42:17] <twentyafterfour>	 sublime text: the universal package manager
[18:42:18] <robla>	 I think the interesting idea that they are pursuing is "make it possible to use something like pip or Composer without roaching your environment".  "interesting" being the key word there....
[18:42:50] <robla>	 I say "interesting" because I can't substitute the word "viable".  "noble", perhaps
[18:43:56] <mobrovac>	 pip/composer/npm/etc all seem to have the same aim and scope on paper, but the fact is that npm is not used outside of the node.js world, just as pip isn't used outside of python
[18:44:18] <mobrovac>	 or ruby-gems or any other
[18:44:26] <twentyafterfour>	 there is also "snappy" which looks like a good solution to  "universal" package management: https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/
[18:44:30] <bd808>	 There is a large class of developers who just want the tools to get out of their way. Composer comes from this school and that is a very different POV than the folks who want security and verification have
[18:44:42] <twentyafterfour>	 snappy packages are kinda like application containers at the os level
[18:44:57] <twentyafterfour>	 similar, I would guess, to what iOS does
[18:46:20] <bd808>	 iOS apps are like OSX apps: a standardized directory structure for where the bin, lib and resources go
[18:46:31] <Nemo_bis>	 Really?
[18:46:44] <robla>	 it'd be pretty cool to assemble a panel for a tech talk on this subject.  someone from Guix, someone from Snappy, someone from Composer...then give them virtual nerf guns and see what happens  :-)
[18:46:50] <bd808>	 each of which is isolated from the rest of the system (like installing to /opt/foo/...)
[18:46:51] <Nemo_bis>	 So how comes I find people who install two copies of a program, each broken in a slightly different way
[18:47:37] <twentyafterfour>	 bd808: right, and snappy lets you package libs that override the system libs, they are more like overlays than /opt/foo I guess
[18:48:18] <bd808>	 Go old school for a similar idea with https://www.gnu.org/software/stow/
[18:48:36] <csteipp>	 bd808> [[Insecure but convenient dependency tracking download tools]] <-- I fully endorse this label :)
[18:48:49] * bd808 used stow on solaris servers in '00-'06
[18:49:08] <bd808>	 csteipp: heh. I was thinking of you when I wrote it
[18:49:12] <twentyafterfour>	 that must be where brew stole the bottle idea
[18:49:53] <twentyafterfour>	 bd808: ibcdtdt has a nice ring to it...
[18:50:32] <twentyafterfour>	 it could be the name for a friendly but insecure robot friend.
[18:53:16] <robla>	 we (the FLOSS software development community) need to establish a much smoother glide path from "I wrote this thing" to "I packaged it using some ibcdtdt thing" to "my lib was accepted into Debian and Fedora"
[18:53:24] <legoktm>	 [10:43:56] <mobrovac> pip/composer/npm/etc all seem to have the same aim and scope on paper, but the fact is that npm is not used outside of the node.js world, just as pip isn't used outside of python <-- it's alright, people use composer to distribute JavaScript. Clearly it must be the best ;-)
[18:53:30] <bd808>	 Nemo_bis: if you want to read about iOS app structure -- https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/CoreFoundation/Conceptual/CFBundles/BundleTypes/BundleTypes.html
[18:54:20] <bd808>	 there is an open bug for Composer to do binaries too (ala PECL)
[18:54:30] <mobrovac>	 legoktm: yes, but that's because they use php themselves
[18:54:43] <twentyafterfour>	 I've seen npm used for non-javascript apps. can't remember which one though
[18:55:26] <robla>	 continuing on my earlier thought....the royal we also needs to make it easier to take an existing library, and just add that *one* thing that's missing
[18:56:21] <twentyafterfour>	 robla: it's the last step that gets tricky, figuting out a smooth path into debian seems like a intimidating problem to solve
[18:56:35] <bd808>	 like deb patches?
[18:57:08] <twentyafterfour>	 snappy does patches by using read-only binary images which can stack
[18:57:27] <mobrovac>	 robla: that would also imply bridging the gap between "developers" and "sysadmins" to some extent - the former wants to move quickly and experiment, for the latter the exact opposite is more optimal
[18:57:34] <robla>	 Volker_E: RoanKattouw_away : Krinkle : the last 45 minutes of conversation is pretty relevant to the FE stds group meeting from yesterday
[18:57:39] <twentyafterfour>	 I think it works like unionfs
[19:01:09] <robla>	 notes from the conversation yesterday: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/FrontEndStandardsGroup ... we were talking about T807
[19:01:44] <legoktm>	 the "Reconnecting with the shared hosting community" meeting is happening in #wikimedia-office right now btw
[19:19:27] * robla catches up on the backlog on #wikimedia-office, and starts reading https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/2015_MediaWiki_User_Survey
[21:05:53] <snitch>	 [[Tech]]; 41.137.57.33; [none]; https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=14718283&oldid=14712026&rcid=7023638
[21:06:18] <snitch>	 [[Tech]]; MaxSem; Undo revision 14718283 by [[Special:Contributions/41.137.57.33|41.137.57.33]] ([[User talk:41.137.57.33|talk]]); https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=14718289&oldid=14718283&rcid=7023639