[00:57:58] <comets>	 *.wmflabs.org certificate expired :/ how to update?
[00:58:14] <comets>	 ppl at -lab are useless
[01:57:45] <Negative24>	 comets: there is no other way. labs people have to update the reverse proxy.
[01:58:21] <Negative24>	 and the fact that their "useless" is because of the CA not them
[01:58:26] <Negative24>	 *they're
[02:10:06] <gut>	 protip, don't piss off your IT people 
[02:10:40] <gut>	 we can make your life a joy, or a nightmare depending on how you treat us 
[02:26:00] <comets>	 any cheats for us?
[02:27:08] <comets>	 that certificate was only valid for like 10 weeks :/
[02:27:52] <comets>	 sadly my favourite wmflabs tool is kaput cause it forces 'https' :/
[03:38:20] <Krinkle>	 comets: ops have sent request to the Certificate Authority, now it's waiting for them to approve it. Will take upto a day.
[03:38:47] <comets>	 well u got me my fix..so i'm good :)
[03:39:01] * comets snorts his croptool
[03:39:16] <Krinkle>	 The security of websites is fully opaque between the site and your browser, there is nothing tool authors can do about this, that would violate the purpose of security. It's just kind of annoying in this case.
[03:39:21] <robla>	 Hi Krinkle!  I was just about to type something totally unrelated  :-)
[03:39:43] * robla waits for a little bit before changing the subject
[03:40:18] <Krinkle>	 robla: Aye, I'm literally signing off for today. Stretched it already for an outage in my tool. Hit me up tomorrow.
[03:40:51] <Krinkle>	 I'm curious what you have for me. :)
[03:40:55] <YuviPanda>	 should I put something up on the topic?
[03:40:56] <Krinkle>	 o/
[03:41:07] <robla>	 Krinkle: no worries!  My comment wasn't for you specifically....just talking generally about Wednesday's meeting
[03:42:29] <YuviPanda>	 there
[03:43:47] <robla>	 YuviPanda: I've started using this channel as the channel I bring up Wikimedia architecture stuff in, since *no one* wants a new IRC channel, really
[03:43:57] <YuviPanda>	 robla: ah interesting
[03:44:06] <YuviPanda>	 robla: I've always thought it was a support channel of sorts
[03:44:09] <YuviPanda>	 I pop by during outages only
[03:44:57] <robla>	 yeah...as I recall, it used to be one of the general channels
[03:45:00] <YuviPanda>	 yeah
[03:45:12] <YuviPanda>	 I guess both #mediawiki and #wikimedia-dev are kindof full of botspam now
[03:45:33] * YuviPanda keeps channel on autojoin
[03:46:00] <YuviPanda>	 robla: what architectural issues are you considering / thinking of atm?
[03:46:12] <robla>	 #mediawiki isn't so full of botspam, but "MediaWiki" is a loaded term for Wikimedia devs who don't consider themselves PHP devs.
[03:46:41] <YuviPanda>	 robla: ah ofc
[03:46:54] <robla>	 re: architectural stuff.  mainly https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/E66 right now
[03:48:17] <YuviPanda>	 robla: nice. looks like the sql mode thing is the one with the most momentum
[03:49:00] <robla>	 I think so....I'm planning on sending some mail (maybe tonight) about it.  sql thing -> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T108255>
[03:49:53] <robla>	 this channel also seems the most intuitive counterpart to wikitech-l
[03:49:58] <YuviPanda>	 nice!
[03:50:02] <YuviPanda>	 indeed
[03:50:03] <Krenair>	 Other people have significantly differing opinions to me about what constitutes 'botspam' :|
[03:50:31] <YuviPanda>	 Krenair: the problem with it I think is that even if 20% of it is useful, it's a different 20% to everyone and so that means 80% is useless
[03:50:35] <YuviPanda>	 but the 20% is *really* useful
[03:51:17] <Krenair>	 I find it easy to have a conversation in there.
[03:51:18] <robla>	 the heavy bot traffic also means that a comment is more likely to get lost in the bot traffic
[03:51:30] <Krenair>	 But apparently some people don't because they see a backlog full of wikibugs
[03:51:34] <YuviPanda>	 indeed
[03:51:36] <Krenair>	 and not other people chatting
[03:51:44] <YuviPanda>	 I open up and it's 500 unread messages
[03:51:55] <YuviPanda>	 if 400 of them rae gonna be bots I'm going to mark as unread
[03:51:57] <Krenair>	 And so the problem perpetuates itself
[03:51:58] <YuviPanda>	 *are
[03:51:59] <YuviPanda>	 indeed
[03:52:25] <Krenair>	 Wait, you have to mark IRC messages as read?
[03:52:38] <YuviPanda>	 well, 'unhighlight' the channel
[03:52:52] <YuviPanda>	 place my 'unread messages' marker elsewhere
[03:52:55] <YuviPanda>	 so yes, I suppose
[03:53:03] <Krenair>	 ah, okay
[03:53:03] <YuviPanda>	 I've been using slack recently (kubernetes uses slack)
[03:53:15] <YuviPanda>	 it actually doesn't have a 'solution' to this problem :)
[03:53:24] <YuviPanda>	 it's solution seems to be to just relegate bots to a different channel
[03:53:26] <Krenair>	 so my client just shows whether there is unread messages in a given channel by highlighting it
[03:53:29] <Krenair>	 not the actual number
[03:53:44] <YuviPanda>	 Krenair: yeah, I get a highlight and on visiting the channel I get a number
[03:53:49] <Krenair>	 I don't usually bother reading IRC channel backlogs
[03:54:13] <YuviPanda>	 heh
[03:54:23] <YuviPanda>	 I do, primarily because I'm in the ops graveyard shift
[03:54:37] <robla>	 do we have any "must read" documents regarding SQL, other than "Security for developers"?
[03:54:44] <Krenair>	 Looking for things to do as ops YuviPanda? :)
[03:54:57] <YuviPanda>	 Krenair: not atm :P no. there's puppetswat tomorrow if you want :)
[03:55:02] <Krenair>	 haha
[03:56:13] <Krenair>	 robla, I can't think of anything... we should probably have something on query performance?
[03:56:38] <robla>	 Krenair: yeah, I'm skimming this now: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Performance_guidelines
[03:57:31] <spagewmf>	 robla: I guess https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Coding_conventions/Database is must-read
[03:57:39] <robla>	 it appears as though "Architecture guidelines" gets into whitespace a little too quickly, just from skimming https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_guidelines
[03:57:53] <YuviPanda>	 WHITESPACEBESTSPACE
[03:58:15] <robla>	 spagewmf: thanks!  I missed that I guess
[03:59:48] <robla>	 spagewmf: oh....I'd forgotten about this: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Development_policy#Database_patches   we need to elevate that
[04:00:07] <spagewmf>	 robla: Architecture_guidelines seems like some strong opinions that got polished and edited but never formally adopted, hence {{draft}}. But I may be forgetting my history (and doomed to repeat it:) )
[04:00:58] <robla>	 spagewmf: the history is actually probably messier than that, so good luck repeating it  :-)
[04:02:46] <YuviPanda>	 repeatability is very important in science, so we must try to repeat it
[04:02:57] * YuviPanda starts by proposing newer spacing standards
[04:03:01] <spagewmf>	 repeatability is very important in science
[04:03:14] <spagewmf>	 am I doomed yet?
[04:03:47] <robla>	 In T108255, I proposed possibly splitting T108255 into two different tasks....and I'm thinking about jfdi
[04:05:11] <spagewmf>	 robla: also https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Database_optimization
[04:06:33] <robla>	 spagewmf: I hadn't seen that one.  btw, who is User:Leucosticte ?
[04:06:57] <spagewmf>	 i'm not sure, the name is familiar
[04:08:38] <robla>	 banned user who wrote most of that, but the page banner implies "developer consensus"
[04:09:32] <comets>	 lets ignore his existence..
[04:10:16] <YuviPanda>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Engineering/Product_Strategy_Offsite
[04:10:18] <YuviPanda>	 can't imagine why
[04:10:54] <Krenair>	 WMF globally banned user, robla
[06:21:23] <Nemo_bis>	 WMF bans have no relation to content, his mediawiki contribs were good.
[06:33:01] <Bsadowski1>	 Nemo_bis: That's a banned user on English btw
[06:33:05] <Bsadowski1>	 See his English page
[06:38:40] <Nemo_bis>	 that's why i specifoed 'mediawiki contribs'
[14:39:05] <xzise>	 Hey I've got a question with regard to wmflabs: The pywikibot test suite is regularly checking on wikistats and wdq and since a few hrs/days the SSL certificate fails for the HTTPS connection: https://wikistats.wmflabs.org/api.php?action=dump&table=wikipedias&format=xml
[14:39:19] <xzise>	 Ah it expired today
[14:39:33] <MatmaRex>	 yeah, there's a bug somewhere
[14:40:07] <xzise>	 Is it know to whoever manages it that the certificates have expired? Or who do I have to bug?
[14:41:00] <Stryn>	 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112608
[14:41:41] <fuzheado>	 Yes, see the status message at top
[14:41:46] <fuzheado>	 well, depending on your IRC client
[14:42:02] <xzise>	 Ah
[14:42:06] <fuzheado>	 Yuvipanda sez: “We are waiting on the CA to re-issue the certificate and will be back online as soon as that happens. Might be up to midday west coast time however :("
[14:42:20] <xzise>	 it was scrolled all the way to the right so that issue wasn't really visible
[14:42:23] <xzise>	 thanks anyway ;)
[14:42:24] <fuzheado>	 :)
[14:42:50] <xzise>	 it's not like a problem for us… we just can skip those tests
[14:43:06] <fuzheado>	 xzise: It’s definitely disrupting a bunch of stuff
[14:43:23] <fuzheado>	 “Just for info, this breaks most Wikivoyage articles (they embed a dynamic map frame generated by tools.wmflabs.org):"
[14:43:27] <fuzheado>	 doh 
[14:43:51] <xzise>	 :P
[14:44:24] <fuzheado>	 I saw this problem within an hour of the expiry of the cert, but thought certainly it was my boneheaded problem on my side :)
[16:15:44] <YuviPanda>	 fuzheado: xzise MatmaRex back online (ssl)
[16:15:53] <fuzheado>	 YuviPanda: thanks!
[16:17:34] <YuviPanda>	 fuzheado: yw. Apologies for the disruption
[16:36:08] <xzise>	 Cool
[23:40:15] <MusikAnimal>	 okay, can anyone reassure me that the query I want to do is ridiculous and not feasible: Find all IP talk pages that were deleted prior to 2008
[23:40:52] <MusikAnimal>	 I tried something like `SELECT COUNT(*) FROM enwiki_p.logging_logindex WHERE log_timestamp < CAST('2008-01-01' AS time) AND log_type = "delete" AND log_namespace = 3 AND log_title RLIKE "\d+\\.\d+\\.\d+\\.\d+";`
[23:41:14] <MusikAnimal>	 err except log_timestamp should be `CAST(log_timestamp AS TIME)`
[23:41:32] <MusikAnimal>	 I was not able to get a result, it just hung indefinitely :(
[23:42:54] <YuviPanda>	 MusikAnimal: people in #wikimedia-research might be able to help better
[23:43:11] <MusikAnimal>	 I will try there, thanks!
[23:45:08] <YuviPanda>	 yw
[23:49:20] <Krenair>	 MusikAnimal, it's certainly feasible, but that query alone would only get data from one wiki :)
[23:50:13] <MusikAnimal>	 ha, well this is per [[w:WP:DELTALK]], an enwiki-specific guideline
[23:50:27] <MusikAnimal>	 I just don't know how I'm possibly going to get the names of the talk pages if I can't even do a count
[23:52:09] <MusikAnimal>	 I've tried narrowing it down to 2003 and earlier, still unable to get a result