[00:02:21] Hi there. Now when I visit en-wiki, the CSS files don't take effect, because the multiple-request and connection error issue I experienced yesterday with enwiki is now with bits.wikimedia.org [00:02:39] That's all via https [00:09:03] Where in the world are you Mardus? [00:09:14] Estonia [00:10:40] But the issue yesterdayhad somehow boiled down to outdated SSL/TLS support in browsers (because Firefox displays all right) [00:13:13] So in SeaMonkey 1.1.19 (I know it's an old version) a page in en-wiki shows without CSS, whereas in Internet Explorer 6 a in en-wiki (all https, mind you) shows with CSS. Although IE6 is much older than that version of SeaMonkey. [00:21:09] Separately trying to access https://bits.wikimedia.org with SeaMonkey 1.1.19 results in "the network link was interrupted" error. [00:26:15] again Mardus, stop using seamonkey then :P [00:26:26] get its daddy,. firefox ;) [00:26:41] comets: SeaMonkey is Firefox's uncle. [00:27:11] Firefox is like Mozilla's son. [00:27:44] IE is firefox's generally crazy uncle (fester) :P [00:28:40] IE is like a distant and inbred relative. [00:28:44] -and [00:29:55] SeaMonkey 1.X just upgrade it . it's at 2.4 or something [00:30:01] 2.x was in 2010 [00:30:25] I know that old version of SeaMonkey is really old, and the current version is 2.30. [00:30:34] Not 2.3, but actually 2.30. [00:30:50] k-meleon is a better browser than seamonkey ;) [00:30:51] ah, heh, i saw 2.4.1 in Ubuntu packages [00:31:08] comets: K-Meleon has much poorer addon support. [00:31:23] install the separate components instead of the suite? [00:31:34] icedove and iceweasel [00:31:38] mutante: I'm using Windows. [00:31:39] i wish they updated that browser..its like Firefox 2.0, back when FF was cool :( [00:31:55] comets: SeaMonkey has been update, it's now at version 2.30. [00:31:59] * updated [00:32:04] Mardus: gotcha.. [00:32:20] but still. what is the difference anyways [00:32:25] Mardus, i meant k-meleon [00:32:35] if you install Firefox and Thunderbird [00:32:46] Yes, and the rendering engine of SeaMonkey 1.1.19 dates back to October 24, 2006 (as of the release of Firefox 2.0). [00:32:49] comets: Oh, ok. [00:33:05] comets: But K-Meleon has much poorer add-on support. [00:34:02] In terms of technologies supported the Gecko 1.8.1.xx rendering engine dates back to October 2006. Omg, that's eight years. [00:35:21] Thing is, that the new SeaMonkey does not sit well side-by-side with SeaMonkey 1.1.19, as after installation of any modern SeaMonkey version, SeaMonkey 1.1.19 won't start anymore. [00:37:05] why would you want to have 2 versions installed? [00:37:11] mutante: For testing. [00:37:27] hmm.. maybe you want virtual machines instead ? [00:37:45] mutante: No, I would need a completely new machine for that. [00:38:25] comets: Firefox is still great for many things that Chrome/Chromium cannot do. What Chrome and Chromium have over Firefox is process independence between tabs and some neat backend work which makes it more responsive than Firefox. [00:39:35] Strangely enough, Firefox is less of a memory hog for large groups of tabs than Chrome. Whereas Firefox for Mobile more demanding on hardware in smartphones. [00:41:21] The great thing about Firefox is that it's very good on legacy operating systems, offering a modern browser experience at a time when these systems' native browsers are long-outdated. Even on mobile, where Firefox on Android 2.2 and 2.3 is much newer than the native browsers of these mobile operating systems. [00:51:32] FF updates every month, other browsers once or twice a year..IE, ever 6 years :P [00:54:15] i guess poodle killed IE6 [00:54:30] yay poold [00:54:33] poodle [00:55:32] well, you can enable TLS in IE6 and then still login [00:55:48] but if you *can* actually enable that... you can also just install a sane browser [00:55:55] that :) [00:56:26] won't fix all IE6 related bugs ?:) [00:56:54] They're implicitly already :P [00:57:04] except of urgent security-ish stuff [00:57:21] IE7 is actually a 'good' browser, ;) [00:59:49] comets: A couple days ago I had installed Adblock Plus on IE7. It kinda worked. Then I tried to install an addon that was meant for IE8, and after that IE7 with Adblock Plus started crashing. So I uninstalled IE7 and downgraded to IE6. [01:00:50] u downgraded to a poor version... :( [01:01:39] on a poor OS [01:01:47] I thought of making some screenshots with that. [01:04:14] * comets is on vista :P [01:08:42] WARNING: detected: vista, ie7, adblock [01:09:15] vista is actually not bad ;) [01:09:24] compared to Windows ME :) [01:10:05] or Win2000, or Win95 :P [01:10:08] print spooler is beyond fscked in visa [01:10:09] vista [01:10:26] who prints anymore? :P [01:10:31] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=adblock+evil [01:11:43] comets: good one, actually [01:13:45] I thought of manipulating some with this old SeaMonkey, but forgot at the same time that I was using ChatZilla with it. [01:13:51] Strangely, en-wiki now shows okay with https [01:14:30] * comets prefers enwiki with http and all other wikis :\ [01:16:47] ? you don't want https? [01:16:58] no [01:17:02] why not [01:17:53] my net generally runs over 100kbps but when on wiki*edia, it barely runs 10kbps..slower on https :( [01:19:35] comets: That's very strange; Where I am, there is little to no discernible difference between http and https. [01:19:37] i think there must be other reasons for it being that slow [01:20:13] just refreshed my enwiki watchlist with a max sped on 21kbps..lol.. [01:20:18] he's on the arse end of hte internet :P [01:20:32] just the wikis, facebook loads over 200kbps :P [01:20:50] arse end of the internet spectrum u mean? :P [01:21:04] But doesn't Facebook use https by default by now? [01:21:21] * comets misses his dial-up now :( [01:21:43] yeha https ok on other sites, just not on wiki*edia.. [01:22:04] some providers do weird stuff trying to cache [01:22:23] I think at one point I used 14.4 kbps dialup in late 2000's... [01:22:50] is there a way to speed it up mutante ? :( [01:22:57] move [01:23:07] i tried uplaoding a 1Mb image on commons, took me 16mins lol.. [01:23:14] Change providers... [01:23:32] no options, we only have 2 ..both suck.. [01:24:12] comets: Here's what you can try: Disable SSLv3 on your browser and keep TLS1.0 and newer [01:24:33] * in your browser [01:25:20] how is wikivoyage.org or wikidata.org ? [01:26:56] rarely use them but mediawiki.org loads faster than most other wikis.. [01:28:21] that would be a hint that it's probably not an issue on our ssl side [01:29:18] comets: You could swith off checking if a site is a forgery or an attack site. [01:29:34] so disabling ssl can help? [01:30:31] comets: Yes and no. SSL3 is outdated, but supported by many secure sites, maybe for legacy purposes. [01:30:57] The idea is to make sure TLS stays on. [01:31:57] Not all https sites might work if you turn SSLv3 off. [01:32:11] Wikimedia wikis no longer support SSLv3. [01:32:24] Great [01:32:56] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-October/079058.html [01:32:57] comets: What kind of a browser do you use? [01:33:01] that's what i meant with "poodle killed IE6" too, btw [01:33:19] mutante: What's poodle? [01:33:26] FF33 [01:34:47] Mardus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POODLE [01:34:50] comets: First turn off checking for forgeries and attack web sites; see of that might help, but I'm not sure of that, because I use Firefox 33, too, but without these two features turned on. [01:35:33] its always disabled for me, i prefer using noscript for the malwares.. [01:35:39] mutante: Is Adblock evil? [01:37:41] Carmela: Adblock Plus is good, AFAIK; no in-video ads on YouTube. [01:37:44] its awesum :\ [01:38:04] I use Adblock Plus and Ghostery. [01:38:14] mutante: What do you mean with 'killed'? [01:38:16] And I imagine the Web would be unusable without them. [01:38:40] Mardus: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/10/17/protecting-users-against-poodle-by-removing-ssl-3-0-support/ [01:38:46] Carmela: controversial because of the "acceptable ads" stuff .. AdBlock Plus vs. AdBlock EDGE .. [01:38:50] Mardus: The blog explains the IE6 connection. [01:38:58] "In June 2013, blogger Sascha Pallenberg accused the developers of Adblock Plus of maintaining business connections to "strategic partners in the advertising industry", and called ABP a "mafia-like advertising network" :) [01:39:21] mutante: It seems to remove the ads. That's all I really ask. [01:39:43] They added some non-intrusive ad bullshit at some point, but you can disable it. [01:39:48] It's an extra click, oh well. [01:39:54] now if fuckbook removed all their stupid ads, we wouldn't need adblock plus :\ [01:40:31] That's not a nice name for Facebook. [01:41:08] expects they won that domain in a legal case [01:42:24] meh billion dollar industry with billionaire owners, no one cares about their sentiments.. [01:42:26] Carmela: Strangely enough, I can still browse Wikipedia over https with IE6 after downgrading from IE7. [01:42:40] Carmela: Thanks for the links; I've looked them over. [01:42:43] Downgrading? [01:42:46] Is that possible? [01:43:31] Carmela: Yes, because I borked IE7 running Adblock Plus when attempting to install another extension that was meant for IE8. [01:43:37] useful FF addon to get rid of ssl https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ssl-version-control/ [01:44:11] or just go to "about:config" and search for "tls" [01:44:30] you'll find a "min" and a "max" version [01:44:36] comets: The idea is not to use facebook at all. [01:44:50] there are over 20 options :P [01:45:10] security.tls.version [01:45:42] min 1, 3 max [01:47:34] yea, reasonable [01:47:52] got the same [01:48:10] btw, you can try https://www.howsmyssl.com/ [01:49:17] Carmela: So in Windows xp it's possible to downgrade to IE6 after IE7 has been installed. Turns out that Windows XP SP3 was installed after IE7, and one widespread solution to downgrading to IE6 was to uninstall Service Pack 3 from Windows XP and then downgrade to IE6 (aka uninstall IE7 from Add/Remove Programs), but that was too much work for me. [01:50:47] Usually, when IE7 is installed, it may ask if IE6 should be kept or not and I didn't know with this computer, as it got passed down to me from a family member. Since I knew that an IE6 did work even if IE7 was installed, I assumed it was possible to downgrade to IE6 anyway... [01:51:25] "Your SSL client is Probably Okay" heh [01:51:58] And Microsoft offered a solution to downgrade without having to uninstall the whole Service Pack 3. Before uninstalling IE7, I chose not to remove all the updates that were installed for IE7 (for the sake of posterity, perhaps). [01:52:09] Carmela: Oh, forgot to add this: http://support2.microsoft.com/kb/927177/en-us [01:52:36] comets: doesn't get better than "probably" :) [01:53:22] Strange thing is, I just discovered my version of IE6 has support for TLS 1.0. [02:02:07] By the way, when I use an SSL-enabled version of Lynx (in Windows) and browse around the https Wikipedia, I get this error: SSL error:host(en.wikipedia.org)!=cert(*.wikipedia.org)-Continue? (y); I contninue and the pages load and logins also work. [02:05:30] anyone else have the problem of their side and top bar not loading when refreshing their watchlist on enwiki? [02:07:48] comets: I'm not seeing any issues. [05:44:33] I don't quite understand if Mardus fixed their problem [10:54:08] http://pastebin.com/QLZhSC7X < when refreshing enwiki watchlist.. [11:11:38] so i updated to wmf 1.24 and now on one of my templates I'm getting Fatal error: Maximum function nesting level of '100' reached, aborting! in /var/www/core/includes/Hooks.php on line 89 [11:13:14] all the other ones are fine.. and they use the same module. [11:15:59] tried importing it from en wiki and uploading it and got Warning: DOMDocument::load(): I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/var/www/core/languages/data/plurals.xml" in /var/www/core/includes/cache/LocalisationCache.php on line 656 [11:16:03] it's Template:Citation [11:43:39] 503s, whee [11:43:40] Request: GET http://en.wikipedia.org/w/, from 10.128.0.117 via cp4016 cp4016 ([10.128.0.116]:3128), Varnish XID 327836071 [11:43:40] Forwarded for: 2001:44b8:3178:1400:9119:77d5:b379:ca82, 10.128.0.117, 10.128.0.117 [11:43:40] Error: 503, Service Unavailable at Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:43:11 GMT [11:43:54] on SSL [11:46:44] confirmed uploading works with the other templates, it's just Template:Citation in particular from en wiki that kills it. ( ! ) Fatal error: Maximum function nesting level of '100' reached, aborting! in /var/www/core/extensions/Scribunto/engines/LuaStandalone/LuaStandaloneEngine.php on line 448 [11:47:02] any ideas? [11:48:17] does en wiki just allow more nesting? I guess I should just allow more nesting. [11:48:40] mvolz: nesting limitation is an xdebug feature [11:48:53] oh so it's a new feature :) [11:49:07] excellent :) [11:54:29] 503 sucks [11:54:34] mvolz: no, it's a feature of a debugging extension you have installed [11:54:39] called 'xdebug' [11:54:43] which we don't use in production at Wikimedia [11:54:50] because, well, who needs debugging anyway [12:01:02] werdna: thanks, I fixed it now :). I guess when I updated there were a few additional function calls that tipped it over the edge [12:01:12] no worries :) [16:40:45] Hi there. I have an ethical question to ask. I went to an eatery belonging to a large corporation and they have four Internet terminals (computers behind boxes) equipped with Sitekiosk. It was easy to determine that the machines were running woefully outdated software. OTOH, the corporation's representatives in another country very rudely mistreated a customer, and I'm not sure if I want the... [16:40:46] ...local branch to know that their computers for public use have very outdated software. Should I notify the corporation at all (because I don't like their representatives' conduct towards customers in another country), or should I notify the local CERT? [16:42:20] Complain on twitter? [16:42:35] Reedy: I'm with a real name there. [16:42:46] McDonald's ? :P [16:43:25] comets: A hamburger for you :> [16:43:50] "McDonald's, Fast food and fast Internet" :) [16:44:30] I wanted to ask, since we've had discussions about browsers earlier. [16:45:37] comets: "IE7 on Windows XP, Flash 10.3.183.10, and very outdated certificate stores. Plus a toy for a child (that won't break)." [16:46:07] atleast Xp is safer than vista.... [16:48:19] One of the local banks is completely blocking IE7 on their online banking website, whereas I can access that site with SeaMonkey 1.1 and even Lynx, if the settings are right. My bank is awesome, I can online bank there with Lynx :D [16:49:16] Reedy: I've also thought of notifying a local technology commentator privately. [16:49:49] OTOH, I'm worried that customers who are still able to login to some of their services over these computers might have their security compromised like that if the terminals run this old software. [16:50:45] Fortunately, the local branch is very generous with free Wi-Fi (a plus), and most people have smartphones and often unlimited mobile Internet. [16:53:01] comets: Vista should be safer than XP. But Vista is slow.. I mean, special. [16:55:11] 'Today a very special episode of 7th Heaven: Windows Vista in the family, and how to cope with it.' [16:57:49] I think customers deserve to surf the web on computers with reasonably modern software that is reasonably secure. [17:04:24] Free wifi isn't much use if it's not encrypted [17:05:10] if it was encrypted, they won't be giving it for 'free' use ;) [17:11:10] Figures. [17:20:11] Oh, and when I went in that eatery's Internet termina to a Business Insider news article, there was an ad that showed a topless Joe Sixpack. I liked that :9 [17:20:52] Pity only that the browser crashed because of endless certificate notifications. [17:21:45] Or because it was loading too many other things. [17:47:31] bye [17:48:59] * comets huggles vvv ^_^ [19:21:45] James_F: is it known that in certain circumstances a [1] from a ref may be previewed by VE as a red link, when the parser's preview shows it rendered correctly? [19:21:54] This was a ref inside {{bio}} on it.wiki. [19:46:17] Nemo_bis: Do you mean an external link? If so, yes, and already fixed. [19:46:36] James_F: I think he means something different but effectively the same bug with the same fix [19:46:43] Remember, references contain [1] [19:46:51] so they match 'a[href]' [19:47:06] Ah, right. OK. [19:48:56] A ref with an external link, in case that matters. [19:49:39] But thanks, I'll retest with my ~~guinea pigs~~ focus group. Will the fix be deployed by Thursday 8 UTC? [20:14:12] I forgot who it was that I talked to last time, but bits.wikimedia.org is still being weird over here [20:14:30] I've had no other connection problems other than to certain wikimedia servers, same issue - a ton of packet loss for some straneg reason [20:15:51] Have you found anything new about the issue? [20:16:01] not at all [20:16:02] https://cdn.mediacru.sh/mBzmBLFmSZiH.png [20:16:18] all I know is that NTT is still where the packet loss happens [20:16:36] and it affects both connections to the US wikimedia, and amsterdam servers [20:18:22] WinMTR, nice :) [20:18:27] So it does work [20:19:24] However that one doesn't show packet loss with the bits.wikimedia.org row [20:21:09] Someguy123: anyway, please file a bug saying your ISP and attaching that screenshot https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Wikimedia&component=General/Unknown [20:21:30] Nemo_bis, after a few minutes it does. [20:21:42] Nemo_bis, a few minutes later: https://cdn.mediacru.sh/AhoyEXebYOOg.png [20:21:53] oh wow [20:21:57] even bugzilla is slow as hell [20:22:08] makes sense [20:22:12] Nemo_bis, this is going to be fun... the page crashed because it's taking too long to load [20:22:25] ok, then email ops-requests@rt.wikimedia.org [20:22:40] Someguy123: Are you the one from uk that is using some custom DNS? [20:22:42] this is private, so you can also mention your (public) IP which they're going to need anyway [20:22:57] hoo, I use level3 and google DNS, my DNS isn't the problem. [20:23:10] but you're not supposed to go via eqiad :P [20:23:19] should work, though [20:23:21] doesn't matter, the amsterdam servers suck either [20:23:25] :P [20:23:26] which is what my ISP dns give me [20:23:48] there's few reasons to not use them in Europe [20:23:56] * hoo can't think of one [20:24:05] hoo, to not use what? [20:24:12] esams [20:28:52] hoo, what's the amsterdam server IP again? [20:29:02] need to screenshot a traceroute to point out it's not just NTT's route [20:29:46] text-lb.esams.wikimedia.org (91.198.174.192) [20:37:34] email sent [20:37:49] got my reply, support ticket is in. [20:47:13] thanks [20:47:53] "Interesting, Christian, perhaps this is also related to varnishkafka bits delivery errors?" [20:48:06] i don't get it [20:48:46] * qchris reads backscroll [20:49:03] (btw my name is not christian if you're actually in here "Andrew Otto"...) [20:50:46] hoo, do you have any idea what the wikimedia ops support means ? ^^ [20:51:21] is this an rt ticket? [20:51:25] yes. [20:51:27] I presume he's not referring to you [20:52:05] Purely based on the CC that was added [21:23:10] Hello world! I have a mass account creation problem at a GLAM event...unforeseen problem as we have more students than expected. [21:23:31] undead: I'll give you account creator status [21:23:38] Anyone able to help me help the participants register new accounts? [21:23:44] Thanks harej. [21:24:27] Event is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Colorado/Fort_Collins/2014 [21:24:40] You are now an account creator. You can create an unlimited number of accounts for people via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:UserLogin/signup [21:25:01] So I give that URL to the prospective editors? [21:25:06] No. [21:25:15] You create the accounts yourself. Be sure to select "Use a temporary random password and send it to the specified email address" [21:25:31] Got it. [21:25:43] thank you kindly! [23:05:37] Hi there. Is the a known problem with wikimail? [23:08:08] wikimail? [23:08:46] Email to user via mediawiki, tells me "cannot execute sendmail". [23:09:56] what wiki, krd? [23:10:01] dewiki [23:10:10] Hm. [23:10:22] Well it's not known to me :p [23:10:33] Please fit it anyway. ;) [23:10:38] s/fit/fix/ [23:11:09] You using HHVM? [23:11:13] yes [23:11:40] Have you managed to reproduce the issue? Or did it only occur once? [23:12:14] It's reproducable. [23:12:37] for user:krdbot @dewiki, e.g. [23:15:09] maybe this is a shot in the dark, but try turning off hhvm and trying again? [23:16:51] hhvm off -> works [23:16:58] hhvm on again -> work still [23:16:59] hmm. [23:17:43] Ok, now it's no longer reproducable, whatever it was. [23:19:53] weird.