[00:00:15] someone made a dashboard... [00:00:30] on the mail server?? [00:00:43] i don't think we copy those logs elswhere,Trminator [00:00:58] mutante: true. and no list archives? [00:01:14] http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/_PowerPosters.html [00:01:20] i don't see Svetlana there [00:01:27] Trminator: for some lists, not for all [00:01:39] Trminator: maybe the trends just include public lists.. yea [00:01:50] for that matter i don't see mutante there [00:02:09] wow [00:02:24] jeremyb: that's because it's about lists :) [00:03:04] jeremyb: that for gerrit .. ? [00:03:14] no? [00:03:15] no [00:03:30] mutante: last time i checked, wikitech-l was a list ;) [00:03:52] yes, and do we have stats for gerrit like that? [00:04:08] remembers something Quim made once as well [00:04:22] mutante: don't know, but how did you get to gerrit just nowß [00:04:28] ok, i see Svetlana now [00:04:30] http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Wikitech-l.html [00:04:36] and mutante [00:04:57] ahhhh [00:05:09] i didn't see you guys on the main list because you're not "powerposters" [00:05:12] :D [00:30:17] jeremyb: hi. [00:30:21] jeremyb: what's up? [00:30:46] Svetlana, ask Carmela :) [00:30:55] Carmela: that's going to get easier, now, as I mentioned. I'll (try to) abuse IRC more. [00:31:33] Mail has never been my strong point. A lot of these messages didn't get understood remotely as well as I expected. :-( [00:33:50] All of this could be much easier if I had a proper workplace at home. Which I don't; it's an endless source of trouble and issues, which get worse as time goes. [00:35:11] you mean people running around distracting you or making messes? [01:24:46] hola [05:21:54] hey guys, when it try to sign in, I get "[fe654767] 2014-09-03 05:20:50: Fatal exception of type MWException" [05:21:57] any ideas? [05:22:35] yes [05:22:37] we really ought to fix that [05:22:55] for now, how do I get around it? [05:22:56] it's https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69834 [05:23:08] if the description of the bug is anything to go by, you're already logged in [05:23:18] csteipp_afk: ^ [05:23:39] Oke doke [05:24:04] second time i've seen someone on IRC ask about that, which is pretty major, because it usually means a lot more people are experiencing it [05:24:36] No, I'm not logged in. I'm getting the not logged in banner. [05:25:15] I tried visiting Special:UserLogout and it doesn't work [05:25:48] blargh. first of all, sorry about that [05:27:01] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69834#c7 makes it sound as though you may be able to get around that by clearing your cookies, and/or waiting out the session expiration time [05:27:19] legoktm: any ideas? i haven't looked at this issue in depth [05:28:01] i have to run for a bit (it's 10:30pm here) but i'll look at this when i get back in half an hour [05:28:19] thanks for updating the bug btw [05:28:37] Ok, g'night. It's 12:28 AM here ;) [05:29:02] I had a few ideas on how to fix that, didn't realize it was still occurring. I'll post on the bug [05:31:45] I recently enabled "remember me for up to 30 days", if that's relevant, but good night [14:41:34] Hello all, I wanted to inquire about an implementation on the mobile app, and a possible problem it is causing for patrollers. Am I in the right place? [14:41:55] #wikimedia-mobile might be a better place :) [14:42:07] This isn't a bad place, but maybe not the best ;) [14:42:39] I will try there, thank you! [14:49:39] This is in regards to new users supplying misleading edit summaries, as the mobile site appears to have pre-supplied edit summaries such as "fixed typo". Patrollers end up inadvertently treating them as vandals. I'm really interested in the developer's input here, but given this is becoming a real problem, maybe I should file a bugzilla report? [14:51:02] Putting it in bugzilla is probably not a bad idea, that gets a bit more of a permenant record of it [14:51:13] MusikAnimal: fyi in jargon they call those "canned edit summaries" [14:51:42] (hoping this helps your archives searches) [14:51:46] Nemo_bis: to the devs or in general? [14:52:00] to? [14:52:35] I guess the question is who does that jargon mean anything to/who uses it [14:52:38] is the "canned edit summaries" a developer term or a wiki term, sorry just never heard it before [14:52:41] ie just developers, or anyone? [14:53:01] it's WMF-speak [14:53:21] okay, good to know [14:59:49] i don't understand why inaccurate edit summaries leads to: Patrollers end up inadvertently treating them as vandals [15:00:07] thedjNotWMF: lying about the content of your edit is considered bad faith [15:00:23] This may be what MusikAnimal is talking about. [15:00:35] yeah, but bad faith != not a proper edit [15:00:56] yes, precisely [15:01:00] bad edit + bad faith = vandalism [15:01:12] if you lack either of the two you escape damnation [15:01:18] <^d> Lying implies intent imho. Are we sure they're not just Doing The Wrong Thing? [15:01:18] not every patroller is perfect, they misconstrue the intention of the editor [15:02:21] I want to believe they're using those edit summaries by mistake [15:02:29] no, they are lazy. [15:02:37] which is why canned edit summaries work :) [15:02:42] "work" [15:03:10] well at least people make more edits than before where mobile team gave them a "Edit summary" field. [15:03:35] They don't have one now? [15:04:06] now there are 4 'canned edit summaries' and if you look very carefully you can construct one yourself [15:05:34] basically, on mobile, people prefer pciking between a few options, than having to enter something that they don't understand how it should be formulated [15:06:32] Only on mobile? :) [15:06:41] This seems to be the only on-wiki mention: Canned edit summaries some pushback on mailing lists resort the options based on what the user did linked a word -> [add links] 1 character -> [fixed typo] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Design/Design_Review#Moiz_.E2.80.94_Mobile_App_Edit [15:07:01] well on mobile they are forced into two screens, (due to lack of space), meaning more steps, meaning more points to give up. [15:08:36] my personal idea was that eventually, you'll want to track how many times a canned edit summary has been used, then after like 4 times or something explain them about what a 'proper' edit summary is and then just funnel them into that flow. [15:09:05] but i'm not sure if the team put something like that in the planning. [15:09:33] thedjNotWMF: that'd be great, sounds difficult to implement though. The thing I've noticed with new users is they get scared of easily, we don't want to make it seem complicated [15:09:56] but perhaps they should add tags to posts with 'canned edit summaries' so at least it's more identifiable for patrollers [15:10:23] what brought me here was the complaint from patrollers, there was even a filter created to label the misuse of edit summaries as "possible vandalism", as [[Special:AbuseFilter/633]] [15:10:56] yes, perhaps we could alter the filter above to more appropriately label them as being canned edit summaries [15:11:15] I think that's the fundamental problem... many patrollers don't know that they are "canned" [15:11:38] sounds like a plan. then file a report in bugzilla that mobile should do that automatically [15:12:37] I'm on it. Thanks! [15:16:50] Or just add a 5th option "no idea/other/don't bother me" [15:19:00] yeah... even if the edits are tagged as "canned edit summary", some patrollers will still take the "Fixed typo" edits the wrong way. It's easy to see why they would [15:19:53] Will have to link the "canned edit summary" tag to some MediaWiki doc explaining what they are [15:23:19] Nemo_bis: there's already an 'other' that lets you pick your own, and you don't *have* to pick a summary [15:23:50] like i said. it works because ppl are lazy :) [15:24:16] YuviPanda: but might tags be an idea ? [15:25:25] we already tag them as mobile app edits, and even then we didn't split android and iOS to prevent 'patroller confusion' (quoting) [15:25:30] so I'm unsure if there'll be more tags [15:26:19] YuviPanda: prefix in the summary ? [15:26:35] there are just 4 canned summaries per language, tho :P [15:26:53] like it's customary that 'canned summaries' from Twinkle for instance have the [[TW] tag in there' that helps people understand such things better. [15:27:03] YuviPanda: but people don't know. [15:27:16] thedjNotWMF: although, I no longer decide these things, so discussion on a bug that Deskana would see would be more appropriate [15:27:28] * YuviPanda is no longer tech lead on the apps and has moved very much to the background [15:34:05] YuviPanda: o_O [15:34:29] saper: hmm? [15:45:08] ward cunningham was wondering about the flags used in the recent changes irc updates from the various wikipedias? https://github.com/edsu/wikichanges/issues/11 [15:45:32] :o [15:45:44] does anyone have any insight into what those flags mean, i guess create, delete, move, patrol are obvious :) [15:46:06] there's a mix there [15:46:33] gj Nemo_bis [15:47:07] edsu: IIRC there was a page with a regex to match the whole thing and explain what they are [15:47:20] Reedy: that would be cool [15:47:50] Last time I looked for it though, I couldn't find it :( [15:48:18] :-( [15:48:57] Source code is https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-core/blob/master/includes/rcfeed/IRCColourfulRCFeedFormatter.php [15:49:11] $fullString = "$titleString\0034 $flag\00310 \00302$url\003 \0035*\003 \00303$user\003 \0035*\003 $szdiff \00310$comment\003\n" [15:49:28] $flag = $attribs['rc_log_action']; [15:49:32] rc_log_action is a db column [15:50:55] ahah [15:51:06] which table? [15:51:14] minor [15:51:19] bold, new [15:51:23] Reedy: you congratulated with me for a comment which still had to happen? :) [15:51:27] unpatrolled = ! [15:51:31] aude: already [15:51:35] explained on the bug [15:51:38] ok :) [15:52:02] I want to know where this page with the damn regex is though [15:52:56] cvn wiki? [15:53:08] an etherpad destroyed in the grand EL migration? [15:53:17] EL? [15:53:21] a secret paper under pathoschild's pillow? [15:53:26] etherpad lite [15:54:29] edsu, want to be the keynote speaker at wikimedia dc's annual meeting? [15:54:44] saturday, october 18 or thereabouts [15:55:13] it's a harej :) [15:55:15] etherpads arent archived and never have [15:55:22] unless you copy them to a wiki [15:55:29] mutante, more like ephemeralpad am i right? [15:55:39] right [15:56:21] harej: keynote speaker?! i'd be happy to come and share info about congressedits etc if it is of interest; i get kinda scared of keynotey types of things though :) [15:57:32] I'm sure it was on meta or mediawikiwiki [15:58:29] edsu, i'll be sure not to make a big deal of it then ;) [15:58:45] also, if david ferriero wants to speak he'll be the keynote speaker, simply because you can't top the archivist of the united states [15:58:52] unless *his* boss wants to speak, but that's vanishingly unlikely [16:14:11] harej: :-) it would be very difficult to top him yes ; you are a very good presenter yourself you know ; you did a great job at wikimania dc [16:15:05] :] thank you [16:15:17] I'll definitely be speaking! But it can't be *just* me [20:44:15] uh, a lot of commons images just stopped working in nowiki [20:44:26] Yeah [20:44:32] Jhs: -operations is aware [20:44:39] ok, cool [20:44:52] Same deal on meta, enwiki, etc. [20:45:40] i see. then they are most def. aware. i was thinking if it was only an nowiki issue, they wouldn't notice right away [20:45:43] most pictures on dewp mainpage are not being displayed [20:45:48] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Hauptseite [20:46:48] hey guys [20:46:56] anyone else having troubles with the images? [20:47:00] yep [20:47:03] :p [20:47:20] strainu, everyone :o) [20:47:26] Change the topic. ;) [20:47:26] 10x [20:47:34] sjoerddebruin: yep,good idea [20:48:23] the problem seems to occur only on some pages in Wikipedia namespace, not in articles or talk pages etc. :? [20:48:35] Everywhere. [20:49:03] in dewiki it's only in Wikipedia namespace [20:49:07] It's fixed [20:49:46] Reedy, awesome :D [20:49:57] Reedy, do we need to purge the pages edited during the problem? [20:50:25] Purging always helps strainu [20:50:29] I purged one just now [20:51:57] So, an open question [20:52:25] Why is it that 'bugs' get uploaded to 'production' systems such that it makes projects look unprofessional? [20:52:37] Human error in this case [20:52:45] qcoder00: it's a subtle editor engagement strategy [20:52:46] Reviewing code in 2 web browser tabs [20:52:56] Nemo_bis, haha [20:52:57] Nemo_bis: ROFL [20:53:03] It was noticed that 99 % users don't know Wikipedia is made by volunteers [20:53:10] The human eye isn't good at noticing case mismatches and alike [20:53:15] By making it look less professional, we hope to involve more people [20:53:16] even more so when they're not right next to each other [20:53:34] 427 chaos monkeys have been ordered to that purpose [20:53:49] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&diff=0&oldid=624062618 ugh [20:54:01] qcoder00: At least we're not breaking the cluster with errors that area easily identified by simple tools anymore ;) [20:54:04] why do people not read even the previous section before reporting an issue? [20:54:10] there are three sections for missing images already [20:54:25] this is some seroius brain damage :/ [20:54:42] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kurier still does not display images [20:54:50] Tried purging it? [20:55:18] yep [20:58:08] Looks alright now... [20:58:27] yup, works now [20:59:06] Oh and I am about to have a rant [20:59:43] qcoder00: and I'm about to give you a good place where to place it [20:59:44] qcoder00: It was my patch that broke images. WMF has actually made great strides in terms of QA in the last couple of years. Lots of automated tests, consistent use of code-review, etc. This was a weird corner-case that was roughly invisible to the human eye... [20:59:54] And developing for a system that isn't available for test on beta. [21:00:01] :( [21:00:05] Thanks for the explanation [21:00:09] MatmaRex: it's not brain damage, it's the urgency to OMG something is broken and people NEED TO KNOW [21:00:18] My rant wasn't to do with that patch though [21:00:20] But, it's true that in the future we should rely more and more on beta roll-outs before things make it to production. We just aren't to the point of that being useful in all cases yet. [21:00:36] (I can scream now and refactor the scream later) [21:00:39] Nemo_bis: so, brain damage, indicated by unwarranted self-entitlement [21:00:46] It was to do with the fact that Mediawiki needs an extension that does content rating [21:01:05] Extension:ArticleFeedbackv5 [21:01:09] MatmaRex: nah, just how things work [21:01:12] (or at the very least do PICS/RASCI on external links) [21:01:19] ohnoes [21:01:23] Nemo_bis: that's the only wiki i know of where they work that way [21:01:50] MatmaRex: maybe you've not watched enough of them :) [21:02:19] Nemo_bis: okay, de.wp too [21:02:25] it's contagious brain damage [21:03:24] yeah, it's called the internet [21:03:30] spreads everywhere [21:03:58] qcoder00: I hoped your rant would be about the "stabilize infrastructure" strategic goal being fundamentally revoked https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form#Stabilize_infrastructure:_AWOL [21:04:51] i've been looking at wikiwand at bit lately... wow, i wish we could do something like that.... but never gonna happen... [21:05:08] if you like it, what's the problem with them doing it? [21:05:22] nothing, i just wish that we could :) [21:05:27] Sometimes I wonder if WMF ought to have a lot more focus on making the stuff that is alreayd there stable [21:05:43] qcoder00: they do [21:05:45] rather than getting into rows over new stuff... [21:05:49] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SohMW2aa9IQ [21:05:53] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stability [21:06:01] Nemo_bis: at leas 60-70% of the tech staff works on nothing BUT that. [21:06:20] thedjNotWMF: hm? [21:06:29] Are the tech staff paid? [21:06:34] that's why people are clamoring for consistency and stuff, so we need LESS ppl working on shit like that [21:07:04] qcoder00: no, they're called staff because they need to stuff Jimbo's pockets with gold coins for the privilege of having a staff badge [21:07:10] thedjNotWMF: You mean having less people but more specfic roles? [21:07:22] Nemo_bis: I hope that was a joke [21:07:51] Nemo_bis: No, it's because of the very nice ash walking stick we have to carry around. Some of the older staffers have quarterstaves instead. :-) [21:08:44] qcoder00: of course not, I have right here the list of prices for dressing Jimbo in his room, washing his feet and renting 25 cm² in his courtyard where to stand up 15 min a day [21:09:09] there are some special offers for certain packages which are less popular these days, but still evergreen [21:09:45] thedjNotWMF: I'm not sure I understand, you're saying there should be less people like wikiwand? [21:10:43] no, i say ther should be less need to have people working on stability, because we would have achieved it. vs. playing a 10 year catch-up event. [21:11:10] I personally think that there should be a bbudget alllocation for paying tech staff [21:11:12] I don't think stability is something you achieve [21:11:23] Unless it's the stability of death [21:11:29] As in having paid operations staff [21:11:31] Which for instance the WMF board is very close to achieving :) [21:12:07] with a dedicated role of keeping things stable [21:12:13] This may of course be doen already [21:12:25] qcoder00: that's what we already have [21:12:32] Good [21:12:35] qcoder00: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors?showall=1#Technical_Operations :) [21:12:50] qcoder00: if you don't do anything, then the site dies wihtin a few weeks most likely [21:12:55] andrewbogott_afk: read backscroll, MMV etc. should be available on http://commons.wikimedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page [21:13:23] chrismcmahon: Have we disabled it? [21:13:32] It's a shame that WMF can't get Government funding [21:13:58] As in serious , no need to worry about stability funding [21:14:17] Reedy: ummm, https://integration.wikimedia.org/ci/view/BrowserTests/view/-All/job/browsertests-MultimediaViewer-en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org-linux-firefox-sauce/ [21:14:25] If WMF was able to have access to the type of funds NARA or LOC has ... XD [21:14:54] chrismcmahon: it's only enabled by default for anons now [21:15:16] and browser tests run logged-in, right? [21:16:33] MatmaRex: no, andrewbogott_afk said "developing for a system that isn't available for test on beta" but it is available. and browser tests run more often as anon than as logged in, depends on what the test needs [21:18:35] chrismcmahon: i think it is more that the config of prod and beta are still separate for various very good reasons. [21:18:48] As I am here [21:19:01] Is there also a plan regarding targetted disruption? [21:19:24] (i.e Is there a plan concerning orgnaised cyber attacks against projects?) [21:19:40] thedjNotWMF: that is true, but also becoming less true. we actually have I think 115 conditional statements in puppet that define the difference between beta labs and prod [21:19:53] thedjNotWMF: someone counted recently :-) [21:19:59] chrismcmahon: yeah getting closer. [21:20:26] qcoder00: that's a very complex question [21:20:47] IS there a plan? [21:20:54] thedjNotWMF: 2.5 years ago when I joined WMF beta labs was a mess of symlinks that petan had cobbled together :-) [21:21:04] simply because there are so many venues that can be the entry point to such an attack [21:21:32] qcoder00: the majority plan is that we don't keep any info that would be valuable to such an attack [21:21:33] qcoder00: probably. it's also probably not public, for obvious reasons ;) [21:21:57] Yeah [22:12:32] There seems to be a problem loading images from Commons? [22:12:40] https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Multim%C3%A8dia should show icons [22:14:13] qgil: purge it and it should be OK [22:16:28] NotASpy, ah, indeed. So simple. Thank you! [22:16:58] qgil: no probs. There was a minor technical issue earlier which caused it.