[00:15:17] <Nemo_bis>	 thanks _joe_ and thanks ori fo fwd :) http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-August/078034.html
[00:15:45] <ori>	 i messed up the thread :/
[00:16:03] <ori>	 but yeah, happy times
[00:19:57] <ori>	 valhallasw`mania: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66989#c4
[02:14:58] <comets>	 serious question, please allow the option to uncheck "Always use a secure connection when logged in" at login.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences
[02:15:33] <p858snake|l>	 comets: please file a bug in bugzilla.wikimedia.org
[02:15:44] <comets>	 if that helps..
[02:17:31] <comets>	 which cat, wikimedia?
[02:34:17] <comets>	 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69319
[02:36:43] <RD>	 Why would you want to do that?
[02:39:26] <p858snake|l>	 using https shouldn't be slowing you down like that...
[02:48:00] <comets>	 oh it does....
[02:52:10] <comets>	 as i mentioned before, y is it necessary to use wiki on a secured connection? the "last" time wiki got hacked was not even a hack but a developer making a mistake which led to them "enforcing" https for no reason ...
[02:52:46] <comets>	 its wiki, not my bank account/personal email etc...
[02:55:10] <Betacommand>	 p858snake|l: depends on your connection, I know where I work https sucks
[02:55:41] <p858snake|l>	 Betacommand: They are most likely doing MITM for inspection
[02:55:52] <p858snake|l>	 https and proxied connections will cause some slowness
[02:56:23] <Betacommand>	 p858snake|l: its a LOT more than just some it adds 5-10 seconds lag per page
[02:58:29] <comets>	 indeed, i load my enwiki watchlist in 5 seconds flat on http, its takes closer to 15 seconds on https..
[03:02:18] <svetlana>	 please file a "https is slow" bug
[03:02:41] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: its not on the wmf end
[03:02:52] <svetlana>	 Betacommand: then he needs to nag his isp.
[03:03:15] <svetlana>	 it's unacceptable, not explained, and a second folk who asks "let me go http only" for this stupid reason.
[03:03:40] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: in most cases its a waste of time
[03:03:41] <svetlana>	 I understand it's a valid feature request for a website, but for /https is slow/ reason? why on earth would it be?
[03:03:55] <svetlana>	 that's just stupid for it to be slow.
[03:05:09] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: depending on the network config there may be nothing that can be done thus users are either forced to use HTTPS for basic browsing and grind to a halt, or stop using the wiki
[03:05:48] <svetlana>	 would it happen to double the quantity of wmf servers that provide https?
[03:05:54] <svetlana>	 s/happen/help/
[03:06:15] <svetlana>	 provide more of them close to trouble areas or something
[03:06:45] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: you dont get it, the problem isnt with the WMF
[03:07:09] <svetlana>	 I'm trying to think of ways to remedy it. if adding a new server next door doesn't help, then it's a modem problem?
[03:07:35] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: ... do you know networking at all?
[03:08:05] <svetlana>	 yes, but nothing at all related to https. I only know that someone needs to encrypt content before sending it, but I wouldn't expect the overheads to be noticeable
[03:09:20] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: depending on the network config a HTTP request may go through 3-4 hops before reaching the internet and another 3-4 on the way back
[03:10:36] <svetlana>	 only 3-4? that's a small number. in other words, you may want to give me something to read (something that explains about hops and routing of https content)
[03:10:42] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: I know for example most request where I work get routed through our central network to HQ, though our security box, and then through our web proxy box
[03:11:02] <svetlana>	 my first thought here is "but both http and https have this fate".
[03:11:29] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: encrypted data is harder to process and causes more checks
[03:11:56] <svetlana>	 I see.
[03:13:55] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: https adds 1-2 round trips just to configure the secure connection
[03:14:53] <Betacommand>	 thus your doubling or tripping the connection time in some cases
[03:15:09] <svetlana>	 mm. I wonder whether it's possible to establish a connection once and maintain it, and use ajax to retrieve new information.
[03:17:14] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: more often than not the proxies between them will not keep it open that long
[03:17:38] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: better solution, dont force https in environments that cant handle it well
[03:18:57] <Betacommand>	 svetlana: another example where this doesnt work china
[08:46:20] <Nemo_bis>	 _joe_: I found another page useful for edge cases hhvm tests :p https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help_talk:Page_name#Slow_to_load
[09:12:37] <svetlana>	 Keegan: hi.
[09:12:46] <svetlana>	 Keegan: do you read JavaScript?
[09:14:56] <Tpt>	 Reedy: Could you merge this backport before Tuesday, please? https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153027/1 It fix the Page: pages edit interface that is currently broken in 1.24wmf16
[09:16:33] <valhallasw`mania>	 Ori: <3
[09:31:35] <yuvipanda>	 valhallasw`mania: where are you?
[09:31:43] <valhallasw`mania>	 yuvipanda: Creative Ways to Alienate Women Online: A How-to Guide for Wikipedians
[09:31:52] <yuvipanda>	 valhallasw`mania: aaaah
[09:31:53] <valhallasw`mania>	 which should be starting in a minute or so
[09:31:59] <yuvipanda>	 valhallasw`mania: right
[09:32:20] <valhallasw`mania>	 I'll probably be in the garden room afterwards
[09:32:30] <valhallasw`mania>	 do you need me? <3
[09:33:03] <yuvipanda>	 valhallasw`mania: should meet up and give you a hug ;)
[09:33:21] <svetlana>	 valhallasw`mania: not at other sister projects?
[09:33:24] <valhallasw`mania>	 hugggsssss \o/
[09:33:41] <svetlana>	 valhallasw`mania: I'm looking at «Wikipedians» word there.
[09:33:51] <valhallasw`mania>	 svetlana: #care
[09:34:01] <svetlana>	 I don't regret missing Wikimania.
[09:34:18] <valhallasw`mania>	 if you take issue with 'wikipedians', you're completely missing the point
[10:35:43] <whym>	 Nemo_bis: how about a page of pointers like this? https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Server_roles
[10:36:18] <svetlana>	 whym: hi.
[10:36:48] <whym>	 svetlana: hi
[10:37:01] <svetlana>	 whym: do you read javascript?
[10:37:27] <whym>	 svetlana: not an expert but to some extent.
[10:38:04] <svetlana>	 whym: when you have a moment, I'd like some feedback on the script structure and quality. https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gryllida/js/feedbackstuff.js
[10:44:46] <whym>	 svetlana: I recommend jshint as described at www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Coding_conventions/JavaScript
[10:48:29] <whym>	 svetlana: a standard (but not strictly necessary) style is to wrap it up with:
[10:48:29] <whym>	 (function ($, mw, undefined) { /* all the script */ })(jQuery, mediaWiki);
[10:51:55] <Nemo_bis>	 whym: yes, thanks; I've already linked wayback from [[m:Wikimedia servers]]; an interwiki redirect to a section on server roles may also be appropriate
[10:51:55] <svetlana>	 OK.
[10:52:54] <svetlana>	 What people are behind https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Winter ? Who leads the project?
[10:55:27] <legoktm>	 svetlana: jorm I think
[10:57:10] * Nemo_bis thought Ded Moroz
[10:59:20] <svetlana>	 legoktm: OK.
[12:43:44] <Nemo_bis>	 svetlana: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Engineering#Identifying_when_it.27s_too_late
[12:51:47] <svetlana>	 good question
[13:01:55] <Nemo_bis>	 http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/admintools/2014-August/000000.html
[13:03:03] <svetlana>	 Nemo_bis: I think the email notification is one-way. you still have to reply on-wiki. which is something you don't have to do with mailing lists.
[13:03:40] <svetlana>	 and yes, mailing lists would soon be gone in favor of Flow, I expect. I did request this at least, some few months ago. :|
[13:04:18] <Nemo_bis>	 no comment
[13:05:38] <svetlana>	 Nemo_bis: I must have made you sad. :( you usually have an opinion on things.
[13:13:44] <Nemo_bis>	 svetlana: not sad until this last line, which is quite hard on me
[13:14:11] <svetlana>	 not sad until the last 50%. aww.
[13:14:27] <Nemo_bis>	 I'd prefer to say I usually can offer points of view