[12:44:59] is teher a new change in the api sine tonight? [12:50:05] what broke lol? [16:30:59] 18.29 < NotASpy> quick question - does anybody know when MediaWiki:history copyright was made redundant ? [16:31:04] redundant where? [16:31:23] those messages were all revamped in 2009 after the license update on Wikimedia [16:31:42] or are you talking of something in core [16:32:27] it used to display on old revisions of a page, now it doesn't. Just wondering when it was changed etc. [16:32:39] I thought 2009 though. [16:34:37] NotASpy: it's an ignored message added in 2009 https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:History_copyright/en [16:35:11] That is, if it's not locally defined (for your language) on the wiki in question, it's disabled [16:35:29] Maybe you're using the wrong language, or the wrong wiki, or you remember incorrectly, or it was deleted. :) [16:36:02] it definitely used to be used, we've got a Help document telling people it's still used, but it's no where to be seen. [16:38:18] NotASpy: define we and have got :) [16:38:25] i.e. what wiki? [16:38:34] en.wp [16:39:21] HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE GUESSED THAT [16:39:36] NotASpy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:History_copyright [16:39:51] so you're using nl language, let me guess [16:40:17] Nemo_bis: no. English. [16:40:19] or en.gb [16:40:43] well, in en it looks like there's a message there ... to me, at least [16:40:57] only if you use en [16:41:14] true [16:41:20] I use en. I see that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:History_copyright has text in it. [16:41:50] but MediaWiki:History copyright doesn't appear anywhere on the site, that I can find. [16:42:20] it looks like it's become redundant or someone has replaced it with something else [16:43:36] our https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_history says it's used, it says "As noted at the end of each history revision, in the text at MediaWiki:history copyright, the page histories may contain material that is subject to copyright limitations." [18:05:06] I notice with some amusement that it's already a habit of ours to schedule software deployments only to push them to later dates a couple of days before the supposed deployment [18:05:10] greg-g: ^^ [18:05:47] greg-g: This makes publication like Tech News basically useless. [18:06:14] I can't count how many times we reported that stuff will be enabled/disabled only to notice the date was changed on a Monday or Tuesday after publication. [18:07:21] Hi twkozlowski. How are you doing today? [18:08:04] Is this related to what I just wrote? [18:09:14] twkozlowski: Well, I'm starting a conversation with you that will eventually lead to talking about what you said, but I prefer to start with the hi-how-are-you. So. Hi! How are you? [18:10:43] Hi! I'm fabolous. How are you? Already charged your batteries after Wikiconference USA? [18:11:29] twkozlowski: I'm still recovering from that a bit, I'm afraid - but thank you for asking. And I am glad that a lot of people found my speech gave them useful tools and perspectives for thinking about things in Wikimedia world. [18:12:33] twkozlowski: Remind me, will you be at Wikimania? I won't, but I'm glad that people will hear about the making of Tech News https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Tech_news [18:12:48] No, Guillame is going to present that [18:13:15] Yeah, I saw that Guillaume is the presenter; I merely hoped you'd be there to bask in the glory :-) [18:13:28] (and give people thoughts on how they can help, your perspective on lessons learned, etc.) [18:14:07] twkozlowski: so, about the issue you mentioned. So, yeah, I have done service journalism as well, and it is super annoying to find that one's service journalism has gone stale before/at publication because the facts changed. My sympathies are with you [18:14:08] Well, I can always do this on-line if anyone asks :-) [18:14:11] True! [18:15:05] Given that sometimes the release folks will find out - a day or two before the release - that there's a big bug or some other reason to delay the release -- to serve our users better -- what is the best way to communicate that out? [18:15:35] guillom ^ (in case you wanna join in this conversation) [18:16:00] I of course can't speak for Greg and I also don't know the statistics regarding how many & what proportion of announced releases have been delayed in, for instance, the last year [18:16:21] The release people are doing the after-fact announcement fine; an e-mail to Wikitech-l or Wikitech-ambassadors is just enough. [18:17:05] Ah OK. I must have misunderstood you twkozlowski because I thought you were implying that you'd like for greg-g & other folks to be doing something differently; my mistake. [18:17:12] What I am complaining about is that there have been many releases scheduled a month or so in advance that were pushed to a later date immediately before release date [18:17:35] So you're saying the way it's handled once it happens is fine, it's just that it's allowed to happen more often than it should be? [18:18:26] Yes, I think many issues that come up immediately before release could be taken into account when the release is scheduled [18:18:28] You might be right; I'd personally have more ability to form my own opinion on that if I knew how many times it's happened [18:18:46] I think at least five time this year [18:18:49] -s. [18:19:13] I have no issue with adding an extra week for unforeseen issues to every release [18:19:22] an interesting idea [18:20:18] * greg-g mostly read scrollback [18:21:05] yeah, twkozlowski, I just found out about the pushback yesterday myself, minutes before -ambassadors did, it's a reasonable thing to do, but I understand the frustration and desire for eg product managers to have a better idea about possible pushbacks sooner [18:21:38] so, yeah, /me nods :) [18:21:53] Top of my head is: Media Viewer release to all wikis was pushed one week, just before that the en.wp and de.wp deployments were pushed to a week later [18:22:05] yeah [18:22:35] they had an agreesive schedule from the start (even though fabrice wanted a more relaxed one), and now they're actually closer to what fabrice wanted [18:22:36] The Commons release was also pushed a week due to Hackathon [18:28:28] sumanah: poking just to let you know i loved your speech at wikiconfusa [18:28:49] matanya: Oh gosh thank you! I am so glad! Was there any particular part/idea that really spoke to you? [18:29:15] * YuviPanda should watch it when on a better connection [18:29:29] matanya: also, I found 'wikiconfusa' really funny since that sounded like 'wikiconfuse' :) [18:29:29] YuviPanda: or you can listen to it [18:29:41] sumanah: the 41% women on hacker school :) [18:29:43] YuviPanda: you can read it - I hired someone to transcribe it [18:29:44] * twkozlowski mumbles the word 'radio' [18:30:31] sumanah: oh wow, that's super cool! And yes, I usually prefer reading them (with a slide deck if necessary) over watching, due to reading speed being higher than speaking speed [18:30:39] manybe we should change the conf name [18:31:53] YuviPanda: approximately 1/4 of the comments at http://www.metafilter.com/139780/Hospitality-Jerks-and-What-I-Learned are like THANK GOODNESS. A TRANSCRIPT! [18:32:02] sumanah: :D [18:32:32] * twkozlowski was part of a team transcribing a seven-hour discussion a couple of years ago [18:32:58] (I had not noticed this wikiconfuse/wikiconfusa typo possibility. hahah!) [18:33:13] oh wow. I have transcribed stuff before but nothing of that length [18:33:53] Yeah. There was a discussion with our Prime Minister about ACTA (the treaty), and the government didn't provide us with a transcript [18:33:58] So we citizens did that ourselves. [18:33:59] you can read all my keynotes YuviPanda - http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/2014_Keynote_by_Sumana_Harihareswara http://opensourcebridge.org/wiki/2012/Keynote_by_Sumana_Harihareswara http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/Sumana_Harihareswara_keynote (and none of them have slides) [18:34:17] sumanah: cool! I just pushed them to my offline reading workflow. Thank you! [18:34:54] twkozlowski: Good for you! although of course it would be better if the govt had given you one and saved time for everyone. Do you think they had one for themselves? [18:35:32] I don't think so. I don't think they have come up with one after all those years even [18:36:04] With that said, I don't even think they have a transcription team [18:36:24] There is a team doing the transcripts for the Parliament, I don't think there is one for the executive branch [18:36:28] sumanah: but honestly, the part of : You don?t know what X is?! [18:39:19] matanya: Yeah. I think a lot of people - well-meaning people, including me - need or needed someone else to explicitly point out how damaging those kinds of performances of surprise can be. [18:39:59] since i saw it, i noticed i do that from time to time to team mates [18:40:09] and stopped. so thank you for this [18:40:29] sumanah: You realise another thing about transcripts? They are damn inclusive. [18:40:35] I am so grateful to have given you a useful insight. Thank YOU for your self-improvement and for telling me :) [18:40:51] twkozlowski: you mean, for accessibility for the deaf, and for less fluent English speakers/listeners? [18:40:55] I used to go to meetings of a deaf-and-dumb association (or whatever the English term is.) [18:41:16] So transripts are really, really useful for those people, who are virtually cut off from the public life in many countries [18:41:18] YES [18:41:28] The U.S and the UK are brilliant with their requirement for subtitles [18:41:42] and sign-language interpreters for most events [18:41:58] and you have the totally mind-blowing Gallaudet University [18:41:58] :) [18:41:59] really envy that one [18:42:07] I have reasonably good hearing and I still watch a lot of TV/movies with subtitles (closed captions we call them) turned on -- because I'm a more visual than aural learner [18:42:20] * greg-g dated an ASL interpreter for 4 years, sadly never really learned much ASL :/ [18:42:37] i.e the south African in mendale's Memorial [18:42:45] greg-g: ^ ? [18:42:57] the problem with ASL is that there is also International Sign Language, and British Sign Language [18:42:59] matanya: ASL == American Sign Language [18:43:02] and Australian, too :-) [18:43:10] greg-g: you killed the joke [18:43:11] my friends include http://stenoknight.com/ (a Python programmer, open source leader, and stenographer for Deaf students) + http://blog.melchua.com/ (Deaf open source leader & engineering education researcher) [18:43:19] twkozlowski: and SAL and BSL have many similar signs, but sometimes they have opposite meaning (WTF!) [18:43:35] er, ASL, my mind is now more accustomed to the Server Admin Log ;) [18:44:22] * twkozlowski is a fan of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway [18:44:34] and we have deaf and deaf-and-dumb fans in our city! Totally amazing. [18:44:49] greg-g: http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/alleged-fake-sign-language-interpreter-at-mandelas-memorial/ [18:45:08] Wait, that's deaf-mute, I think. [18:45:40] or maybe deaf-and-dumb, hmmm. [18:45:50] I went to a tech conference that hired Mirabai (stenoknight) to do live captioning and it worked out really well http://composition.al/blog/2014/05/31/your-next-conference-should-have-real-time-captioning/ -- she also can work remotely via an audio feed and then stream the text she types remotely onto a screen at the venue [18:46:27] brilliant [18:46:36] yes. You can hire her btw, if your event is in English [18:46:55] probably archive.org could hack up something to do that automatically :p [18:46:58] Wow. Why don't we do that for Wikimania? Really brilliant. [18:47:00] and there are other people who do CART (Computer Assisted Realtime Transcription) - and then you have a transcript that just needs a tiny bit of editing so you can put it soon up after the event [18:47:08] matanya: oh right, forgot about that :) [18:47:21] so now all the !!Con talks are up: https://github.com/hausdorff/bangbangcon.github.io/tree/gh-pages/2014-transcripts [18:47:33] twkozlowski: Wikimania's A/V system is ages behind of typical, e.g. fosdem [18:47:55] Even so, having transcript is a good step forwards. [18:48:05] twkozlowski: hey, I'd be in favor of asking future Wikimania bid committees to seek sponsors to pay for CARTing of at least the big plenary sessions [18:48:08] archive.org can produce that AFAICS [18:48:31] twkozlowski: deaf-mute I think is better than deaf-and-dumb, though I don't know that part of the deaf community well to know if there's a preferred term [18:49:45] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture#Terminology [18:49:52] *click* [18:50:03] what would we do without a wiki [18:50:10] matanya: Probably die [18:50:14] it varies a lot across countries and different associations in a country anyway [18:50:26] or read books [18:50:37] the ultimate way to prove you are right in an argument [18:50:41] "Some consider it to be a derogatory term if used outside its historical context; the preferred term today is simply "deaf".[2]" [18:50:49] As with sexuality, gender, ethnicity, and some other things, it's often safest to ask a specific person what term they prefer. I think the preferred nomenclature for "people who don't hear so great, or sometimes at all" varies a lot across countries, even in the Anglosphere [18:51:08] and best if you can say, yeah, i know wiki is right, i wrote it! [18:51:11] greg-g: that's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf-mute [18:51:34] we definitely had the need for asl interpreters in 2012 [18:52:12] fortunate to have some volunteers, but should be budgeted if needed [18:52:26] twkozlowski: cool [18:52:31] transcripts done with Git are so amazing <3 [18:55:54] sumanah: On the issue of inclusiveness and amazigness, there is also https://secure.phabricator.com/T4843 [18:56:24] * sumanah clicks [18:56:36] YAYAYAY accessibility! [18:57:01] And Graham is helping! [18:57:15] pure awesomeness in action. [18:57:21] :D [18:57:34] he should be awarded some hero of the internet prize by $appropriate_important_association [18:58:01] everbody should use lynx [18:58:37] oh you're taking me back to my Weird Al Yankovic-listening days now, matanya [18:59:27] Almost time for the fonts talk [18:59:31] I worked with blind people for several years, and this is the only way to start feeling how they surf the web [19:00:01] Fonts talk: https://plus.google.com/events/chpgv8usjd6dn38on07njjk28hg + #wikimedia-office [19:00:07] i quite like it in fact, no images/flash/video [19:00:35] 1arg white pages [19:00:40] argh* [19:03:08] twkozlowski: so, now that your lovely Tech News works on the planet, what's the status of language-specific feeds? [19:04:08] We should add the appropriate feed to planet in every language. I don't remember if they can be configured so that the feed item doesn't show up if the translation page doesn't exist for the week in question; if they can't, we should include only the languages which are almost always covered. [19:05:40] MaxSem might know that bit [19:06:14] * MaxSem scratches his head [19:06:38] * twkozlowski does the same [19:07:19] Nemo_bis: We would first need to create feeds for each and every language version [19:07:30] Or at least those we'd want to feature on Planet [19:07:55] Yes, that's what I mean. :) [19:08:25] Because I don't think you can have multiple feeds in multiple languages... [19:08:40] MaxSem: does FF explode if it doesn't find a page where there should be one for the $regular_point_in_time [19:08:58] why should it? [19:09:10] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/124272/7/wmf-config/FeaturedFeedsWMF.php [19:09:12] That's the answer I like [19:09:26] so this would need technews-fr etc. [19:09:35] or messages-techniques or whatever. [19:11:45] FeaturedFeeds already support multilingual threads [19:12:06] currently used only for POTD on Commons [19:12:17] So how do I make it display Tech News in different languages? [19:12:18] this is kinda kludgy [19:12:32] is there a paremeter I can pass to it in feed address, for instance? [19:13:09] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Lang [19:13:18] eeeek [19:13:28] they maintain a list of all language codes [19:13:37] we have it on Meta as well [19:13:44] and then {{int:lang}} [19:13:54] so you just request the feed with the appropriate &uselang= ? [19:14:19] yes, basically [19:14:25] unlike templates however, translation pages don't yet have language fallback [19:14:35] Though one could transclude the translatable page like a template [19:14:57] ergh [19:15:00] https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=featuredfeed&feed=potd&feedformat=rss&language=it [19:15:10] Translate does some crazy shit [19:15:25] I strongly doubt that shit would play nicely with FF [19:15:45] nothing as hacky as Commons; should be easy enough [19:16:14] MaxSem: looks fine in ff 29? [19:16:22] https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Ffeed-motd-transcludeme&action=edit [19:16:34] Trminator, FeaturedFeeds [19:16:42] ahh, nvm me [19:16:55] https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Motd&action=edit looks really uninviting :-) [19:18:33] mhm, I could add variable substitution to FF [19:18:58] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Ffeed-motd-title/fr aha! [19:19:06] would at least make {{int:lang}} unneeded [19:20:26] So we have https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Ffeed-technews-page [19:20:58] yes [19:21:19] So I'd have to use some magic to make it display translated versions [19:21:26] it requires a config change to be multilingual [19:21:45] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/124272/7/wmf-config/InitialiseSettings.php [19:22:09] wee [19:23:38] so.. t's ready then [19:31:12] Yeah, but configuring it on-wiki is the tricky part :-) [19:31:59] aude: twkozlowski: Nemo_bis greg-g - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2014-June/005794.html I have emailed wikimania-l to suggest CART for future plenaries [19:32:01] " at least for the plenary sessions, [19:32:01] and perhaps additionally for sessions where we especially want to [19:32:01] welcome Deaf participants and/or people with less fluent English." [19:33:11] * twkozlowski high-fives sumanah [19:33:18] o/ [19:46:18] awww, sumanah is gone :( [19:46:38] * aude notes cart also often helps non-native english speakers [20:08:03] twkozlowski, https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/138905 [20:13:10] \o/ [22:53:15] People on en.WN complain of various vague issues with the wiki: https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler/technical#Broken.3F.3F