[00:41:47] Hey. I have a possibly blasphemous question. How easy is it to change the namespace number for a namespace once a project has already started creating pages in that namespace? [00:42:14] For example, if the Property namespace on Wikidata is 120, how difficult would it be to change it to 220 now? [00:43:02] it should be trivial? [00:43:37] Jasper_Deng: Are you sure, because if it is, I would really like to propose some changes. [00:43:52] why would you need to change it anyways? [00:44:27] Entirely to improve the edit counter tool. [00:45:21] specifically, the graph [00:46:18] shouldn't you contact the maintainer of it? [00:46:50] Jasper_Deng: I'm working with the maintainer of it [00:48:55] The issue is this: Every namespace has a different color for the graph, and it's set based on the namespace. I can re-use colors if, say, only projects A and B use namespace 116 and only projects C and D use namespace 118. The issue is that meta uses tons more namespaces than other projects, and it makes creating enough colors difficult. [00:49:20] Colors need to look different from one another in the graph, which is the issue I am trying to fix now (too much beige) [00:50:11] So a lot of the depreciated namespaces in Meta, like CA Ajuda and Dyskusja pomocy, I want to move them to different numbers, so I can work around the conflicts [00:50:23] depreciated? [00:50:38] I'm not sure all of Meta's namespaces are truly obsolete [00:50:39] otherwise they'd be deleted [00:50:41] Apparently projects get folded into Meta to preserve the edit history [00:50:42] as namespaces [00:51:30] Jasper_Deng: I'm not so sure. They might not get used anymore, but the pages have to go somewhere... [00:51:47] ashley: ^ ^ ^ [00:51:51] thoughts? [00:53:59] Ajuda/Dyskusja pomocy are horribly silly namespace( name)s and I don't really get why those NSes should even exist anymore (after all, as the situation currently stands, a wiki can have only one content language and even the Translate extension uses /langcode subpages for translations instead of fully translated names) [00:54:52] Okay. So I'm just not even going to worry if they all use the same color in the edit counter pie graph. [00:55:53] but for everyone's sanity and whatnot, it might not be such a bad idea to clean up those namespaces and have 'em deleted for good ;-) [00:56:11] Jasper_Deng: for clarification: Only English Wiktionary, Meta, and TestWiki use namespace 116. Only English Wikipedia, Meta, and TestWiki use namespace 118, and only Wikidata, Meta, and TestWiki use namespace 120. I'd love to use the same color for all three, because it means less colors, which means more difference between each color. [00:57:29] For Meta these are NL Help, Dyskusja pomocy, and Ajuda respectively. [02:23:20] I have a visual editor related question. [02:23:49] ask in #wikimedia-corefeatures [02:28:22] I'll ask here, since that channel seems dead [02:28:24] What is the purpose of the VisualEditor namespace (namespace 2500 in mediawikiwiki_p and testwiki_p) [02:28:27] will it ever be something that people edit in? [02:51:49] Jasper_Deng_away, Sven_Manguard: Please don't send VE questions to #wikimedia-corefeatures, send them to #mediawiki-visualeditor [02:51:53] Sven_Manguard: Historical reasons :S [02:52:10] When we first launched VE, we sequestered it to its own namespace for testing [02:52:11] oh [02:52:29] By the time it rolled out to other wikis it was a real boy and got to be enabled in real namespaces right off the bat [02:52:36] RoanKattouw: So it's not a namespace that will be deployed to other projects? [02:52:39] Perfect. [02:52:39] No, no [02:52:49] If anything we should get rid of it on those two wikis [02:52:57] But you know how it is with low-priority non-trivial changes [02:53:02] RoanKattouw: What about the "Thread" namespace? [02:53:06] which is everywhere [02:53:10] That's LiquidThreads [02:53:18] It has a legitimate purpose if you in fact have LQT installed [02:53:55] I guess that eventually eventually that data will probably be migrated into Flow and we won't need LQT or its Thread namespace any more [02:53:58] RoanKattouw: so if I make an edit to a talk page with LQT installed, it will be in that namespace? [02:54:10] Sven_Manguard: Only if you use LQT to post the comment [02:54:26] If you're on a talk page that allows straight up talk page editing you'll still end up in the Talk ns [02:54:31] Hmm, yeah that one will need a color. [02:55:10] RoanKattouw: I am redoing the colors for https://tools.wmflabs.org/supercount [02:55:13] LQT is a bit weird, because when you're using it it pretends you're in the Talk namespace but what you're looking at is really just an aggregation of things that live in the Thread namespace [02:55:39] right now, some of the newer projects have a bunch of similar colors - tan, light brown, beige, off-yellow, eggshell, etc. [02:55:56] But then if you're viewing a specific thread (talk pages consist of multiple threads), you're in the Thread namespace, and the UI is almost the same [02:56:17] so I am trying to figure out which namespaces don't actually get edited in [02:56:46] Notice: Undefined offset: 2500 in /data/project/supercount/public_html/index.php on line 338 [02:56:56] Right [02:57:07] For all reasonable purposes the VE namespace is dead I believe [02:57:10] Let me verify that on RC [02:57:36] Oh, hold on [02:57:52] Sven_Manguard: So, we have [[mw:VisualEditor:Test]], which is like the only page in ns2500 that ever gets edited [02:58:00] But it gets edited lots of times: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?namespace=2500&tagfilter=&translations=filter&title=Special%3ARecentChanges [02:58:10] right now, it's not considered a namespace that can be edited into, actually. [02:58:32] hmm [02:59:17] ah, that's why... ah, I see. [02:59:29] So the pie graph's answer is to show it as black [02:59:47] along with everything else that isn't assigned a color [02:59:53] very... meh [03:04:59] RoanKattouw: what's the Schema namespace? [03:05:29] it's on Meta and Test2 wiki [03:07:11] Sven_Manguard: It's for EventLogging [03:07:24] Well really it's more general than that but EL is its primary user [03:07:32] It allows you to define JSON schemas for capturing data [03:07:43] IIRC these things are supposed to be global and so they only exist on meta [03:07:53] okay [03:08:02] Editing happens there, usually by devs [03:08:25] But it's like data definitions, not "real" content [03:17:56] I have a feeling that no matter what I do, I will wind up screwing over Meta. [03:18:50] they have 36 active namespaces, more than anyone else [03:19:07] there really aren't 36 colors that look that different from one another in a pie graph [03:19:38] right now Module talk and Schema have essentially the same color there [03:19:50] and Category [03:22:46] FWIW the demographics for Module talk and Schema are pretty much the same [03:28:51] Do you think that developers would ever have any real desire to see pie graphs of their contributions to obscure namespaces on Meta? [03:29:24] Because if not, I would totally be down with "ha ha, devs, various shades of grey for you" [03:30:02] Schema is not obscure! [03:30:56] OK, maybe a little. [03:31:49] ori: I realize that these projects are important, but I am not going to lose sleep about pie graphs for them. [03:31:56] That's not why the tool exists. [03:32:13] I'd like you to postpone your bedtime by at least 7 minutes [03:32:22] me? [03:32:34] ori: ? [03:32:40] I'm just joking ('lose sleep'). Don't mind me :) [03:32:54] Oh. Apparently I am dense right now. [03:33:59] I am making color swatches on nothing but adrenaline and cinnamon sugar free gum! :P [05:17:50] thanks for the help Jasper_Deng and RoanKattouw [05:33:25] is wikipedia going to be changing the RSA in its HTTPS SSL to ECDHE_RSA anytime soon? it only makes sense. btw, I noticed google also started using ChaCha20Poly1305 today. [05:38:55] TimStarling: ^ [05:38:59] I don't think so [05:41:18] Jasper_Deng: oh are you answering me [05:41:47] yeah [05:41:50] i don't understand why not [05:41:52] but TimStarling's the sysadmin [05:41:54] and would know [05:41:55] ChaCha20Poly1305 sounds like a virus from early 90s [05:42:16] k let's forget ChaCha20Poly1305 for a sec and focus on ECDHE_RSA [05:42:46] you mean https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53259 ? [05:43:17] RandIter: ^ [05:44:06] judging by that bug report, nobody cares [05:45:38] a lot of people brought up Perfect Forward Secrecy this week [05:46:09] reading still [06:15:10] regarding bug 53259, implementation details aside, are we all at least on the same page that PFS provided by ECDHE_RSA is desirable over RSA for wikimedia websites? This is especially given this week's events. [06:17:58] I think if it is only 15% extra CPU, then we may as well do it [06:20:04] TimStarling: btw, if i understood correctly, the 15% is only for establishing the connection [06:20:11] TimStarling: i.e. during the handshake [06:20:30] i mean the 15% excess is for the handshake [06:21:15] Not for the entire connection [06:21:21] I don't think I have seen any actual benchmarks but I had the impression that the bulk of the CPU time was from the connection setup? [06:21:26] yea [06:21:45] idk sorry [06:21:53] so presumably 15% of the connection, and slightly less 15% of the entire request [06:22:03] *slightly less than [08:27:59] uuh amarcord http://wikimedia-mobile.blogspot.it/ [10:07:41] I have noticed a mistake in the interwikis of the English Wikipedia's Main Page. When I hover the cursor over Bishnupriya Manipuri, the text that appears says "Bishnupria Manipuri". ¿How can this typo be corrected? It also affects other wikis. [10:13:36] LlamaAl: which is the correct spelling? [10:13:40] Revoke the user's autoconfirmed status is not work. How to fix error? [10:13:57] ori: Bishnupriya Manipuri [10:14:04] With the 'y' [10:14:28] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishnupriya_Manipuri [10:16:45] i don't see that anywhere on the main page [10:18:30] Weird, I saw it yesterday [10:18:37] Now I don't [10:20:11] However on eswiki you can see it [10:20:32] The sixth interwiki [10:21:17] LlamaAl: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/125132/ [10:21:18] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Main_Page_interwikis&action=history [10:22:31] ori: Thank you [10:23:12] aharoni, siebrand, btw ^^ [10:24:19] LlamaAl: in the future the most knowledgable folks about this sort of stuff tend to congregate in #mediawiki-i18n ; you should also feel free to file a bug on [10:25:02] ori: Hmm, interesting [10:25:06] Thanks for the info [10:25:32] you're welcome; thanks for the report [10:26:36] :) [10:29:26] LlamaAl: actually, Ori's change will almost certainly be rejected [10:29:40] Nemo_bis: Why? [10:29:57] Because names are not maintained by us: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR [10:30:28] Could you please submit a bug to CLDR? Doesn't even require registration and they're very kind. Obviously they value native speakers' reports more. [10:30:28] Nemo_bis: [10:30:31] /* Not in CLDR 21.0.1. Name Bishnupriya used by Ethnologue: [10:30:31] * http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=bpy [10:30:31] * Added 2007-11-10. [10:30:33] */ [10:30:38] oic [10:30:53] hence the "almost" :P [10:30:56] but that is a lucky fluke, i didn't actually know that [10:31:04] so thanks for that [10:32:10] LlamaAl: then, again, if you're interested in adding the locale to all applications in the world see https://translatewiki.net/wiki/CLDR#Creating_a_new_locale [10:34:09] Apparently it's still missing http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/25/summary/root.html [10:36:44] Nemo_bis: Thanks for the link, I'll read it in a few hours [10:39:33] sure, sleep is important :) [10:41:02] nonsense [10:46:53] hehe [13:06:01] anyone has slow/timeouts when editing ? [21:20:50] when did Special:ListFileDuplicates get implemented [21:26:24] Withoutaname: it got deployed quite recently [21:26:41] I didn't see it show up before so I was wondering [21:26:46] seems to have been created recently [21:26:50] extension documentation for it? [21:26:56] bawolff in #wikimedia-commons or #mediawiki made it [21:26:59] iirc [21:28:29] I think he said something about the patch having sat there for 6 months waiting for someone to get around to reviewing it [21:30:06] Hi, i hear there was a Special:ListDuplicatedFile question? [21:30:18] when did Special:ListFileDuplicates get implemented [21:30:30] also [21:30:33] extension documentation for it? [21:30:45] Withoutaname: It got implemented like 6 months ago, just got merged about a week and a half ago [21:30:55] oh ok [21:31:01] Withoutaname: Its in core, not an extension [21:31:18] so is there a manual for it? [21:31:26] Umm, no [21:31:46] I figured it was pretty self-explanatory. List of files that are exact duplicates [21:31:50] bawolff: I don't suppose it does anything fancy like dedup.debian.net does to compare, say, pixel data as well as the raw bytes? [21:32:01] well yes [21:32:03] just wondering [21:32:07] no nothing fancy, it just does an sha1 of the file [21:32:10] if it could be configured on or off or any other setting [21:32:25] All Special pages can be disabled [21:32:36] really? all of them? [21:32:45] do you have the commit? [21:32:47] or diff [21:33:41] bawolff: did that need any schema changes? [21:33:48] SamB: nope [21:33:59] I suspected as much [21:34:04] we've had dupe tracking for years, we just didn't really show it anywhere except on file page [21:34:38] how's that stored now? [21:34:48] well, I guess the "now" is redundant [21:34:53] Withoutaname: 24276faf6835424f27a423778fd0049c7a21f9be [21:35:17] is there a bot that can turn that hex thing into a URL [21:35:34] SamB: in the image table (and oldimage and filearchive because are image schema is stupid), there's a field called img_sha1, that stores the hash in base 36 [21:35:38] !gerrit 24276faf6835424f27a423778fd0049c7a21f9be [21:35:56] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,24276faf6835424f27a423778fd0049c7a21f9be,n,z [21:36:03] bawolff: you mean, because that data should all be stored in a single table? [21:36:03] guess wm-bot doesn't do that here [21:36:21] oh heh I mistook that for a commit hash [21:36:23] kk thnx [21:36:33] wm-bot: stupid bot! [21:36:37] SamB: oldimage and image should be in a single table. filearchive may make sense as separate [21:37:12] so, does anyone have any SQL access who isn't allowed to see oversighted stuff? [21:37:13] SamB: it is, gerrit can understand commit hashes provided they are after the git switchover [21:37:26] bawolff: hmm [21:38:24] nobody figured out a way to tell it about migrations huh? [21:38:47] does gerrit not support non-ajax? [21:39:11] SamB: Probably not, its a hideous mess of javascript [21:39:16] SamB, tool labs users can do SQL queries against most non-private data [21:39:47] Gerrit uses GWT, if I remember correctly [21:40:21] * SamB mumbles to himself: does the basic HTML view in gmail use GWT? goes to check. [21:41:14] SamB: https://git.wikimedia.org/commit/mediawiki%2Fcore.git/24276faf6835424f27a423778fd0049c7a21f9be probably works without js [21:41:56] i think it was Special:ListDuplicateFiles [21:42:10] except Special:ListFileDuplicates was added recently as an alias [21:43:18] Duplicated with a d [21:43:28] And they were all added at the same time [21:44:03] It was deployed around april 1, and started working april 4 [21:49:49] SamB: I believe WMF makes people sign a non-disclosure agreement before giving them unredacted access to databases (the tool labs db's have the secret stuff taken out) [22:03:20] bawolff: they didn't an NDA with me [22:03:53] and I have access to (some parts of horrible) oversighted stuff [22:04:02] but that's only me nitpicking :-P [22:04:20] twkozlowski, via DB access? or via mediawiki as an oversighter? [22:04:23] twkozlowski: Yes, but you only have oversight access, not direct db access? [22:04:30] Yeah yeah [22:04:48] They did want to force us to sign stuff though [22:05:08] A lot more than OS stuff is considered private [22:05:22] I remember way back, I lost my oversight privileges because they wanted me to be over 18 [22:05:40] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Confidentiality_agreement_for_nonpublic_information [22:05:47] E.g. all user password hashes, tokens [22:06:32] This is probably dead, as I understand it [22:06:58] Also probably much less logging of what people do [22:10:09] twkozlowski, the submit button doesn't actually work [22:11:29] It's a draft, Krenair [22:12:17] I'm not sure whether this will be implemented at all, seeing as the WMF dropped the idea to collect & retain our IDs [22:34:58] you werent over 18? [22:35:51] Withoutaname: It was a long time ago [22:36:07] Adults are over-rated. Wikimedia is built on child labour [22:36:36] truth [22:39:37] * bawolff just had a woah, I've been contributing for 9 years now moment [22:39:40] I feel old [22:40:42] bawolff: probably they wanted that for some kind of CYA reason only [22:40:44] * bd808 slaps bawolff with some reality [22:41:06] bd808: I feel wiki-old [22:41:08] :P [22:41:15] I the US a minor can't enter into a binding lega contract [22:41:21] *legal [22:41:27] I've been doing the whole "in my day" thing for ages [22:41:40] bd808: That's true, but oversighters don't really sign a contract [22:41:41] so when lawyers get involved with things they start askign for 18+ restrictions [22:41:50] probably started before I turned 18 [22:42:00] also "kids these days" [22:42:10] I started before I turned 41 :) [22:42:35] bd808: I was thinking it was more in case things went wrong [22:42:47] bd808: I imagine it also would be a PR disaster - oh all this data was leaked. that sucks, but the community trusted the 14 year old... [22:42:55] yup [22:42:56] anyway, you can totally enter into a binding contract if the bindings aren't merely legal ;-P [22:43:33] bawolff: well, yeah, because it'd look bad and they wouldn't really be able to make you pay [22:44:10] * bawolff notes for the record I wasn't 14 at the time, just using that as an example of something that would look very bad [22:44:18] And now there are many sites with a 13+ restriction because of some well-intentioned but poorly written "protect kids from pedobear" legislation [22:44:27] not in a monetary sense, you understand, because just being poor can pretty well prevent them from making you pay [22:44:57] but anyone can still go to a pornsite with no more than (at the most) a borrowed credit card [22:45:30] <^d> bawolff: Me too, had the same realization today. '05-'14 [22:48:14] Count me in, was thinking about the exact same thing today. [22:48:20] Only I first registered in Nov '05 [22:48:30] So not exactly 9 years [22:48:34] December 1, 2004 [22:49:03] or maybe it was October, I don't know [22:49:18] I know I was too afraid to edit for a full month, and took the time to read all the documentation there was [22:49:33] twkozlowski: See, its a good thing that mediawiki isn't documented [22:49:54] my first actual edit was to add a permission to use some text under the GFDL [22:51:35] (Yes, we used the GFDL in the past, you 2009+ guys :-) [22:58:58] twkozlowski: Ah fond memories of "You mean you printed out a leaflet with info from wikipedia on it, and forgot to include the full 9 page unabridged license? How dare you!" [23:23:07] bawolff: or "You mean you printed out a picture for a Picture of the Year exhibition and forgot to include the full 9 page unabridged license?" [23:23:18] lol [23:23:27] This is based on real events. [23:23:44] There is a POTY winning picture that's only GFDL, what a terrible idea. [23:24:12] I know that some guys printed the license - it's a travelling exhibition - and hang it next to the picture [23:24:32] Good educational value as to why it's a bad idea to release pictures under GFDL [23:24:35] <^demon|away> If the vote had gone the other way, that'd be how every picture is :) [23:24:54] s/hang/hung/ [23:25:51] Well, thankfully the vote turned out quite well. Think of the trees! :-) [23:26:30] <^demon|away> twkozlowski: Depends on your POV if it turned out well :)