[00:08:27] Reedy: do you perhaps know if admins can block the bot User:MediaWiki message delivery or is that prevented? [00:10:31] legoktm: ^ [00:10:44] Romaine: you can block it and it will stop [00:10:49] its just a normal account [00:11:09] Romaine: see also https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:MassMessage#Opting_out [00:12:37] mmm, I hoped that would be prevented [00:13:06] heh [00:13:13] well, hopefully no one will [00:13:22] * Romaine knows some communities [00:13:23] I think only enwikinews blocked EdwardsBot. [00:13:24] :S [00:13:41] svwikipedia blocked also a systembot [00:13:55] from the translate extension [00:13:59] heh [00:14:51] I think the first message of the bot should be a message on its own talk page to inform what kind of bot it is, why, etc [00:16:57] also on nl-wiki that bot was blocked, unblocked later but that was hard to arrange [00:18:33] but still it doesn't post any messages any longer on nl-wiki [00:19:02] mmm, happens to be on more projects [00:59:57] So greg-g, I added a note to the deployments calendar that we want to enable BF, MMV, and CMD by default on Thursday during the wmf4 rollout to all wikis. I'm leaving out VectorBeta because it only went out today, but the rest should be stable enough and the product folk involved seem happy. [01:20:48] Poor Elfix. :-( [01:21:05] Reedy: I get kicked because you didn't update the extension before deploying? :-) [01:21:09] * Elsie pets Reedy. [01:21:30] legoktm: Congrats! [01:21:39] :) [01:21:47] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version [01:21:49] You're famous. [01:21:59] Version 0.0.1, heh. [01:23:45] That should probably get increased at some point. Oh well. [04:38:30] I just lost CSS on enwiki... [04:38:48] nope, just my stupid internet [05:58:49] marktraceur: apparently that doesn't jive with what fabrice said in his last email? [05:58:52] marktraceur: confirm/deny [05:59:42] Uhh [05:59:50] Wait. [05:59:53] Let me look. [06:01:10] greg-g: "stick to the original plan -- and release on Thu. Nov. 21 worldwide, using the current version v0.1 of Media Viewer" [06:01:38] To make sure we're all on the same page, this is what we would deploy on all wikis this Thursday, if that works for the team: [06:01:42] ...stuff... [06:01:43] last line: [06:01:49] * Typography: The version now on MediaWiki.org, which was tested on the beta cluster for over a week, if no new bugs crop up tomorrow. [06:02:21] I really dislike the ambiguity in these emails [06:02:30] I tried to ask for explicitness, but was not given that :/ [06:02:46] not your fault [06:03:47] Huh [06:04:24] greg-g: I think I wrote the change to the deployments calendar before the email was sent, but I'm cool with VectorBeta [06:05:41] k, mind updating the calendar [06:05:49] I do well with diffs not these emails ;) [06:40:31] Sorry about the slowness, but {{done}} [06:50:54] marktraceur: ty, figured that'd be the change, but I wanted to make sure I read the email correctly. [06:51:05] marktraceur: see ya friday :) [06:51:36] Cheers [10:34:10] andre__: is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935570 really fixed for our purposes? O_o [10:50:17] Nemo_bis, I have not seen larger amounts of spamming in bugzilla.w.o [10:54:25] heh [10:54:44] isn't that supposed to help with giving editbugs [14:55:19] MatmaRex: how many points are we "paying" each of those ug 38638 blockers fixes? :) [14:55:52] Uh, only 33 open tasks, we have to add more [14:58:50] Nemo_bis: 1/3 [14:59:04] Nemo_bis: https://google-melange.appspot.com/gci/task/view/google/gci2013/5833790190518272 required fixing three sub-bugs [14:59:24] 'three' being a value i pulled out of my ass when suggesting the task, no one commented on it :P [15:00:01] Nemo_bis: we'll probably have andre__ clone that task a few times to get multiple other sub-bugs fixed ;) [15:01:15] yeah, but not today. too busy with other urgent stuff :-/ [15:02:08] Ah. I still have to draft my version of the task, I'd add some more instructions for better scalability [15:04:06] andre__: shouldn't pau be mentoring https://google-melange.appspot.com/gci/task/view/google/gci2013/5345950625169408 too? [15:04:27] he was going other SVG stuffs [15:04:30] doing* [15:04:37] MatmaRex, I can add him as a mentor too without asking :P [15:05:01] ah. cannot add new mentors once a task has been claimed :-/ [15:05:05] Google Melange... [15:05:29] "If you've already tricked a student into accepting, don't offer mentors any more!" [15:05:59] andre__: woot. that's silly [15:06:05] yes [15:06:11] but i get the task editing form when i try to edit it [15:06:16] does it not work? [15:06:27] " The form was successfully saved." [15:06:40] it worked [15:06:41] huh. [15:06:54] maybe i could do that because i was already a mentor [15:10:09] andre__: you have some experience with gci, right? is it common for students to claim a task and disappear? [15:10:59] MatmaRex, yes, I've run it two or three times before for Gnome. Sometimes this happens unfortunately. Students also sometimes claim a task and then unclaim it when they have found a "better one". [15:11:25] yeah, i've seen that happen already, but that's fine with me [15:11:33] it's the quiiters that are annoying, i seem to have quite a few already [15:11:53] maybe i should tighten the task deadlines, eh (all of mine seem to be set to 5 days) [15:12:00] well, we have the same with assignees in Bugzilla ;) [15:12:09] cookielicking. [15:12:17] it's free software. I got used to it. [15:12:25] heh [15:19:16] I guess they wouldn't have deadlines if that didn't happen [15:19:32] MatmaRex: do you have suggestions on how many points to give for migration of pages to Translate? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Language_policy/Migration_list [15:20:05] ideally it should be based on the number of translation units created/migrated but it needs to be easy to check [15:21:43] Thehelpfulone might have suggestions, no Kaganer or Pirsquared on sight though [15:24:30] Nemo_bis: i have no idea what one really has to do to make a page translateable [15:25:10] Nemo_bis: the baseline is supposed to be "2-3 hours of work for a person experienced in given area" [15:31:03] Yes, I know [15:36:29] where given area is ... ? [15:37:58] mutante: the area the task belongs to [15:38:15] so, if the task is "puppet work mutante would do normally", it's 2-3 mutante-hours [15:39:55] MatmaRex: tagging a page can sometimes take 1-2 hours if it's about 10 kB with mixed content; importing units takes about 15 min for each language when there are a few dozens units, but only if you're an experienced copy&paster and browser tab user and you are not scared by foreign languages [15:43:49] Nemo_bis: oh, i get it. i thought it's a specific area already, so the person who made the guess would know what area it is [15:54:47] MatmaRex: Hi! Could you have a look to https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/88478/ , please? [15:59:24] Tpt_: "I don't think I am knowledgeable enough to review this. :(" [15:59:45] MatmaRex: Do you know anyone that may review this change? [15:59:56] Tpt_: at a glance, that might change the content language on MediaWiki: pages, *.js/.css pages, and special pages [16:00:11] Tpt_: i18n people? siebrand, niklas, raimond [16:00:47] Tpt_: in WMF environment, changing the language might cause ULS to do incredibly dumb shit to those pages, so please be careful [16:01:03] Ok. thanks. It change the value of the language only for Wikibase pages. [16:01:22] (for the other ones contentLanguage == viewLanguage) [16:01:35] Tpt_: are you sure about that? [16:01:37] * MatmaRex has no idea [16:02:05] Tpt_: what about [16:02:09] Tpt_: what about Translate extension? [16:03:07] For Translate extension pages wgPageContentLanguage":"fr" already [16:03:20] So, it won't change [16:10:57] Tpt_: really, ask i18n people :) i'm not very knowledgeable about that, and this looks like it has potential to break things [16:11:22] MatmaRex: Ok. I'll do that. Thanks :-) [16:13:44] Tpt_, MatmaRex; sorry, even as i18n peope I am not sure about the consequences :-/ [16:14:33] Raymond_: I think that only Wikibase pages will be affected. For the other ones the output is the same. [16:15:01] Tpt_: maybe... but I have no time to test it... [16:15:34] Raymond_: Ok. Thanks to have taken some time about it. [16:33:22] MatmaRex, andre__, siebrand: I've drafted the text to be used as regurring GCI task for i18n issues https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Google_Code-in#User_Interface [16:33:55] MatmaRex, if you think it good enough I think you can add it some times yourself? ;) otherwise let's tweak it for a bit [16:38:30] Nemo_bis: that looks nice to me :) [16:38:44] Nemo_bis: but i'm not sure if there's a point in the "one maintainer" part [16:39:02] Nemo_bis: most mainteners will likely not reply within the required timeframe [16:39:17] maintainers*, or just people in general [16:39:25] MatmaRex: usually you either get a reply in few hours or get ignored for months [16:40:17] so if the patch is not reviewed by the maintainers I'll add siebrand (and/or you if you want) as reviewers to accelerate things, but ideally we'll crowdsource the code review a bit [16:40:24] Nemo_bis: and the workflow on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gerrit/Navigation#System_messages looks pretty unpleasant, tbh [16:40:54] command-line git blame is nasty, git gui blame is barely better [16:40:58] well that's what I always have to do in order to discover what the heck the authors of weird messages had in mind [16:41:19] trying to read minds without even knowing the target mind is worse, trust me [16:41:26] and you still risk running into, say, Leo Koppelkamm (in the example), who i haven't ever seen commiting everything, so he's gotta be inactive for at least a year [16:41:33] heh [16:41:55] Nemo_bis: i can be your melange/merging proxy :) [16:42:36] well if you think you can review any amount of i18n patches that would be more than fantastically awesome; however there is a benefit in students learning how to deal with CR in normal conditions too :) [16:43:03] basically, i think that the guide should be linked as a "bonus", not as a task completion requirement [16:43:24] or you'll have people on irc asking 'who is leo koppelkamm' :P [16:44:33] well, the requirement is "add two persons as reviewers" [16:44:48] who those have to be is debatable :) [16:45:10] hm, then that needs a little rewording imo [16:45:32] "Add at least 2 reviewers to your gerrit patches: Nemo and [one maintainer].", linking to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gerrit/Navigation#System_messages , to me implies a maintainer found in that way [16:45:46] (a qqq issue :D) [16:47:03] to simplify we could say to pick the last active non-bot committer from the log of the extension (if it's an extension) https://git.wikimedia.org/log/mediawiki%2Fextensions%2FTranslate [16:47:44] or we could link some general tutorial on adding reviewers to MediaWiki patches, is there any? [16:48:52] there is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Gerrit/Code_review/Getting_reviews#Add_reviewers [16:51:12] MatmaRex: I'm editing that [17:02:08] MatmaRex: saved, and updated the task with a link to that [17:04:01] Nemo_bis: yay [17:17:06] MatmaRex: does that mean that you're so happy that you're going to submit them as tasks yourself? :P [17:20:45] uhh, why would putting 800 pages in Special:ExpandTemplates get me an erro 504 :P [17:21:52] Nemo_bis: i think andre__ has some way of cloning tasks built-in into melange [17:24:41] ah [17:24:55] I suspect apertium folks made big use of that feature :P [17:29:36] MatmaRex, not that I knew of cloning, but you can mass-upload tasks as an admin (maybe also as mentor?) [17:32:12] andre__: i didn't see the option to do that anywhere myself, so probably only org admins can [17:32:23] (or i'm just slow ;) ) [18:09:49] andre__, MatmaRex, guillom, I also added one for documentation translation migration: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Google_Code-in#Documentation.2FTraining [18:11:51] Nemo_bis, if I get it right the task requires not only an admin, but in the middle of the step also a translation administrator? [18:13:07] Nemo_bis: thanks, i'm off for now to do some stupid uni work [18:13:31] Nemo_bis: are students expected to actively find a translation admin? How to make sure an admin will "approve the page for translation at their discretion" quickly? [18:13:37] Nemo_bis, asking as students will be a bit impatient. [18:49:03] andre__: what do you mean "not only an admin"? only a translation admin is needed [18:49:33] If some students start working on more pages, I expect we'll give them the flag directly. [18:50:32] I included as a step that they must edit the list because I'll be watching it, to mark page for translation. I'm also alerting other translation admins. [18:52:47] Nemo_bis: A task needs a mentor defined in GCI. So I wonder if any translation admin could be convinced to be a mentor. [18:52:57] maybe we're talking about you here, just in a very abstract way :P [18:53:42] andre__: I already defined myself as a mentor :) I'm just not the official melange mentor [18:54:42] and as everything happens on wiki with the usual processes it shouldn't be too hard to have other people help without coordination friction, to make things faster and avoid bottlenecks (I hate bottlenecks) [18:56:50] Nemo_bis, if we can define a clear discussion and contact space outside of Melange for you, everything should work fine. [18:57:05] and I could be mentor on Melange or so [18:58:33] andre__: yes, that's what I tried to do, let's improve the description if it's not clear enough [18:58:40] the designated place is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Language_policy/Migration_list and its talk [18:58:49] Nemo_bis, yeah, it wasn't clear to me I admit [19:03:31] andre__: thanks for pointing it out, is it clearer now? [19:12:06] "Congratulations to all 334 students from 36 countries who participated in the contest, completing 1,925 tasks." Hey, that's a lot, even my 4-500 translation migration tasks could see a big dent maybe ;) http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2013/02/google-code-in-2012-grand-prize-winners.html [19:15:24] Nemo_bis, looks okay to me (i changed two small things). How many shall I create? 3 for the beginning? [19:15:56] andre__: 3 it's ok, as you want [19:29:49] Nemo_bis, done, e.g. https://google-melange.appspot.com/gci/task/view/google/gci2013/6385280768540672 [19:35:16] andre__: great, I'm eager to see how it works out :) [19:35:26] I'm curious too [19:36:45] FYI, I calculated the amount of translation units by measuring the speed in special:Contributions/Kaganer :) [19:37:12] I hope it won't be too hard for you to check and that it's not too incorrect an estimate [19:56:17] * jeremyb glares at StevenW / legoktm / bug 57315 [19:56:43] Reason #10,001 why I hate Bugzilla [19:56:55] hah, i like bugzilla [19:57:02] i didn't read the whole bug yet though [19:57:08] Don't worry about it [19:57:37] the confusion is over whether it's just a "Fulfill this new namespace site request and we're done" or "Develop a fully-fledged draft system with new features" [19:58:07] yeah, got that [19:58:13] twkozlowski's on there too now! [19:59:15] anyway, i only connected so that i could come glare at y'all. /me runs off again, bbl [20:00:11] errm what. [20:01:29] StevenW: so why do you want a new extension that will be useful only for enWP? [20:01:44] Read my reply on the bug [20:01:52] You're misunderstanding the intended purpose. [20:02:49] Read my reply... complete with an it's/its error. Something something editing BZ comments. :( [20:03:52] of course I don't misunderstand it; it mentions AFC, which is used to circumvent the ridiculous setting that doesn't allow anons to create new pages on enWP [20:06:58] twkozlowski: i haven't read the bug or the onwiki discussion but fwiw, some people do want to start out of mainspace. e.g. in userspace [20:07:14] so "i can't make a page in mainspace" isn't necessarily the only reason [20:07:35] twkozlowski: The summary of the RFC itself says that it's independent of whether enwiki will continue to use AFC. Plus, most articles in AFC right now are actually made by registered users, not anons. [20:08:43] jeremyb: Yes, and those people can keep drafts in the userspace even without this RfC [21:33:36] now I'm wondering how to recruit more students for google code-in ;) [21:34:43] Nemo_bis: Has it been really helpful? [21:38:53] marktraceur: how would I know, it just started [21:40:09] Well, I mean, people have ostensibly been working on stuff for a while [21:41:07] do you mean the organisers or the students? [21:42:35] for now they completed 7 tasks, small things of course https://google-melange.appspot.com/gci/org/google/gci2013/wikimedia [21:58:30] Nemo_bis: there's an openhatch event this weekend. i had mentioned GCI as a reason that people would probably be online in case someone at the event wanted to do a mediawiki task [21:59:29] jeremyb: heh [21:59:43] that's cool, i can just not sleep [21:59:45] :D [21:59:48] hah [21:59:49] (kidding, kidding) [22:00:03] http://princeton.openhatch.org/ [22:00:05] ok, bbl [23:42:24] > It's not just you! http://svn.wikimedia.org looks down from here. [23:44:27] legoktm: stop looking down on SVN! [23:45:57] ori-l: That's why we can't get rid of SVN, it has the high ground - it always looks down to us [23:55:28] legoktm: Have you filed a bug? [23:55:35] Elsie: Nope [23:55:44] Probably should. [23:55:45] Okay, I will. [23:55:55] thanks [23:56:37] gj Elsie [23:59:20] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57334