[00:00:00] twitter/facebook/whicheverotheraccount [00:00:04] that's possible without login with facebook [00:00:14] I smell a testable hypothesis ;) [00:00:20] yeah, by putting stuff into user page? [00:00:42] it's doable with OAuth [00:01:21] in fact, basically everything you are suggesting is [00:01:50] there're lots of experiments that can be suggested [00:02:11] and I bet that almost none of them require "log in with facebook" [00:02:55] log in with openid! [00:03:05] I also dislike openid as a consumer [00:03:17] except as a substitute for SSO [00:03:22] where the consumer is forced [00:04:37] i dislike saml where the implementation involves a 60 sec wait at a white screen of death before moving on to the next step. (that's what my cable company does when i log in) [00:04:46] * jeremyb has complained about this before [00:04:57] jeremyb: that's just a piss-poor implementation [00:05:09] Ryan_Lane: hence the where clause :) [00:06:30] log in with diaspora sounds awesome though [00:07:14] :D [00:08:27] anyway, it is kinda odd, trusting plaintext smtp and plaintext http as authentication [00:09:01] of course, principal position could be "open only", so going after solutions like Persona [00:09:09] would I like something like that to happen? sure [00:12:11] I'd prefer something like persona, yes [00:12:39] that requires buy-in from most identity providers, though, and it cuts into their business model [00:13:03] so there's no real incentive for them to do it [00:13:44] surprise, thats what free market brings you [00:14:37] when there's little to no restriction to the tracking and privacy of users, yep [00:14:46] there are restrictions [00:15:24] I did say "little to no", right? :) [00:15:30] wikimedia operates under US law, other companies operate under both US and EU [00:15:43] so you may have wrong impression [00:16:13] it's allowed to track users across the internet [00:17:37] it's allowed to track identities across sites via the "log me in with" functionality so that companies can create massive profiles on users [00:17:44] plaintext SMTP is not so bad, compared to plaintext HTTP [00:18:05] GSM providers track your location! [00:18:06] [hint: that is needed to make a call] [00:18:11] TimStarling: because probably neither end is on unsecured wifi? [00:18:12] most people don't run SMTP servers over unsecured wifi [00:19:03] as long as you use SSL for actually checking mail [00:19:10] also, there are different legislations [00:19:10] you may be limited to US view [00:21:19] wikimedia also 'tracks' when I move among different wikimedia projects [00:21:19] tracks when I click the donation banner [00:21:40] it even uses cookies [00:21:44] to determine whether to show me banners [00:21:44] :) [00:22:16] Ryan_Lane: depends on implementation [00:22:34] Ryan_Lane: log-me-in may exist only on 'login.wikimedia' [00:22:48] do you think we should have a Tor hidden service? [00:22:57] just a super simple one, probably read-only [00:23:12] I've been thinking about the security of HTTPS [00:24:15] it wouldn't be surprising if our private HTTPS certs were held by any interested US govt agency and any government agency of a US ally, would it? [00:24:28] they could just get them from DigiCert [00:24:33] private key? [00:24:44] with a Tor hidden service, they'd have to get the private key from us [00:25:01] does digicert have our key? [00:25:05] TimStarling: can use perfect forward secrecy etc [00:25:14] yes, please [00:25:15] yeah, I've been reading about PFS this morning [00:25:26] why would CAs have private certs? [00:25:34] they have just public keys [00:25:48] unless of course someone uploaded private keys to them [00:25:48] :) [00:26:20] yes, ok, maybe I misunderstood how CAs work [00:26:23] thats what i thought. i was worries someone in ops had given it to them for some reason... [00:26:45] TimStarling: how dare you [00:26:50] yeah, they should just sign our public key, and we send that off to everyone... [00:26:53] TimStarling: you're working at top5 website [00:26:59] you should know better [00:27:24] * domas just got a fundraising banner \o/ [00:27:34] its ok, its only 6 by some metrics [00:28:00] yup [00:28:04] logged in users [00:28:08] :) [00:29:03] still, a Tor hidden service would be interesting for other reasons, wouldn't it? [00:29:12] sure [00:29:27] * domas remembers Berlin/Tor/CCC incident :) [00:31:34] TimStarling: just as a fun thing to do though, mostly? [00:32:22] for a site like Wikipedia that is read only for the vast majority of users (anyone happen to know the numbers?) a tor hidden service doesn't give you a whole lot [00:33:30] well, wikipedian tinfoil hat speculations only work about other stuff [00:33:34] doesn't apply to wikipedia itself [00:33:48] why would you care what people are reading if you can see their google searches, right? [00:37:02] TimStarling: why not allow hidden service for all global ipbe ppl? [00:37:11] (including writes) [00:37:40] how's the perf of those services, by the way? [00:38:12] is wikimedia participating in http2.0 discussions? [00:38:25] maybe the CAs don't have the wikimedia keys but at least they can sign new certs with CN=*.wikipedia.org for the government [00:38:37] jeremyb: there's SSL observatory, that would catch that [00:38:40] jeremyb: ipbe? [00:38:57] domas: depends on how narrow the targeting is [00:39:08] jeremyb: is that an advantage over a tor hidden service though? I have no idea how those keys are distributed [00:39:33] ipbe = ip block exemption [00:39:52] TimStarling: true, although for practical application it has to be wide enough [00:40:36] domas: maybe... i was thinking it would be to target specific users [00:40:50] TimStarling: what lazyktm said [00:40:56] if you're targeting specific users you don't need to sniff their traffic anymore [00:40:58] you already found them [00:40:59] :) [00:41:03] Prodego: which keys? [00:41:17] hah domas [00:41:19] jeremyb: the public key for the hidden service [00:41:20] jeremyb: well, two reasons [00:42:16] one is that working out whether a user is ipblock-exempt and displaying appropriate error messages when they are not is beyond what I mean by "super simple" [00:42:32] another is that even ipblock-exempt users can DoS the site [00:42:57] DoS over Tor? [00:43:13] ah, action=parse, yeah [00:43:18] already forgot about these! [00:43:39] yeah, it only takes 7 requests, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Timrollpickering#Template_null_edits [00:44:10] 7 requests generating 22 million parse operations in the job queue [00:44:15] TimStarling: uhhhh, then only let them log in at all if they're ipbe? [00:44:18] <3 [00:44:18] idk [00:44:20] some amplification right? [00:44:31] or don't allow purge via hidden service [00:46:20] hrmmmm [00:47:31] oh yay, twitter added two factor auth [00:48:11] orly [00:48:17] domas: Clearly we need to do that. [00:48:31] https://blog.twitter.com/2013/getting-started-login-verification [00:48:41] James_F: we already did [00:48:48] James_F: OATHauth [00:49:08] errr, OATHAuth* [00:49:31] jeremyb: Remind me again about that being live in production for user accounts? :-) [00:49:40] yup, it is also very easy to use [00:49:47] just as easy as using a phone number [00:50:21] oh yay, market street [00:50:41] James_F: well not every service supports it i gues. but at least the main wiki does. (wikitech) [00:50:46] guess* [00:51:00] i wonder how you'd integrate that with HTTP Basic Auth [00:51:07] jeremyb: "main wiki"? ;-) [00:51:20] main wiki, um lol [01:12:16] I always thought those were mostly an excuse to get your phone number [08:33:58] Are the Wikipedia dumps UTF-8 encoded? [08:36:26] If anyone could help- when I try to access Wikipedia on Firefox, I get this screen- http://imgur.com/64cyntG It doesn't seem to apply to any other site, which are working fine, and doesn't apply to Chrome. Any ideas? [08:39:09] regardless of the language the XML dumps are always UTF-8 encoded? [08:42:20] J_Milburn: is your internet going through any sort of local proxy? [08:42:37] J_Milburn: can you do a traceroute and post the results [08:42:44] How do I do that? [08:43:02] oh wait, doesn't apply to chrome [08:43:17] check what extensions you have installed in your firefox instance [08:46:12] Adblock Plus, Chatzilla, ColourfulTabs, SiteAdvisor, TabMixPlus and TinEye [08:49:55] None of which were installed recently [08:51:38] I can actually access www.wikipedia.org, and even foreign language Wikipedias. [08:52:06] Could someone link a page on the secure server? I could try with that [08:55:02] J_Milburn: just add https ? [08:55:40] Yep, that works [08:55:51] Thanks [12:31:26] [9d2201c5] 2013-07-10 12:31:12: Fatal exception of type MWException [12:31:32] awesome, and how helpful! [12:31:39] Reedy: ^ [12:32:26] [6b584201] 2013-07-10 12:32:15: Fatal exception of type MWException [12:33:20] * hoo wishes he could look these up himself [12:33:37] just FYI, this prevents me from submitting a change to [[m:Tech/News]] [12:33:53] mh... [12:34:19] Wild guess: Translate extension [12:34:32] that's my guess too :-) [12:37:02] on a completely unrelated note [12:37:03] https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:TOC-right&action=edit [12:37:08] https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:TOCright&action=edit [12:37:09] https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:TOC_right&action=edit [12:37:12] I love Wikimedians <3<3<3 [12:37:51] reminds me of: "* Style again! This seems like a code duplication since we already have [12:37:51] * mStyles. This is what makes OpenSource amazing." [12:37:59] in OutputPage that is [12:48:03] oh dear. that doesn't look like a temporary problem. [12:49:45] ... [12:49:59] !b 50973 [12:50:00] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/50973 [12:50:22] I'm getting this on 'save', not 'preview' [16:16:08] apergos: hello [16:16:12] hey [16:16:21] * apergos looks around for pare... no tab complete [16:16:35] yeah, he doesn't seem to be here [16:16:42] pingd in gtalk [16:17:12] we'll see if he shows up in a couple minutes, otherwise it's logged so.. [16:23:23] ok he can read the logs :-D [16:23:34] no commit today (yet) I see... how are things going? [16:25:54] reasonably well, i can now write page metadata to the dump, next i'll make sure i can also read them back and then writing revisions [16:26:11] oohh nice [16:26:17] * apergos itches for a makefile :-P [16:26:27] maybe over the weekend? [16:26:29] :-) [16:29:48] about that: my father is in a hospital (on the other side of the country), so i'm going to go and visit him; i'll probably leave friday and stay there over the weekend; i'll try to work as well, but i'm not sure how much [16:30:11] ok [16:30:15] family first obviously [16:30:36] thanks for understanding [16:31:05] nothing to understand; first off, weekends are off time unless you gotta make a deadline, and second family is always priority [16:31:07] anyways [16:31:21] maybe friday a Makefile? :-D [16:31:22] on the other hand, i might not have Visual Studio there, so it might be a good time to create the makefile [16:31:48] yeah, i'll try [16:32:00] ok [16:32:22] anything troublesome or areas you want to discuss today? [16:32:36] (I saw the mail, seems about right) [16:32:54] nothing today [16:33:17] ok... well I have nothing today either, and didn't get time to read the delta compression paper [16:33:22] that might be my weekend [16:33:37] in which case... have a good rest of your evening and see you here tomorrow! [16:34:24] yeah, i read it yesterday and it contained some pointers to existing implementations and interesting details about them (the multiple pointers part, when you get to it) [16:34:59] ok, I'll keep that in mind, thanks [16:35:25] ok, see you [16:35:51] see ya [17:21:54] varnish on beta may be a bit too picky, even 1-revision import fails [17:21:55] Request: POST http://commons.wikimedia.beta.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Import&action=submit, from 93.50.129.38 via deployment-cache-text1 frontend ([10.4.1.133]:80), Varnish XID 69972620 [17:22:00] Forwarded for: 93.50.129.38 [17:22:02] Error: 503, Service Unavailable at Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:21:06 GMT [17:22:30] though in the end http://commons.wikimedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/France appeared [18:50:34] ohi [18:50:39] freenode being stupid today? [18:50:43] yeah [18:50:51] being ddos'd apparently [18:51:13] now you know my IP! [18:52:26] tfbnw.net? heh [18:52:53] the ddos thang has been going on for weeks and weeks off and on [18:53:06] I would hate to be one of their admins, it must have gotten really old [18:54:08] * odder mumbles something about him having sent an e-mail to domas in February [18:54:23] oh yes, might have happened! [18:54:27] I'm always on IRC [18:54:29] why are you sending me emails? [18:54:47] I don't think you were on IRC in February :) [18:55:11] domas (~midom@127.0.0.1) [18:55:18] :) [18:55:58] maybe giving them a few hardware boxes isn't such a bad idea [18:56:22] nah [18:56:25] they're annoying [18:56:43] with one gigabit how much damage can they do [18:57:31] we would want to make sure that was very isolated from everything else [18:57:40] but I'm not opposed in principle [18:59:02] this was discussed in Internal-l some years ago btw [18:59:53] don't trust him, he got unsubscribed from that list in 2008 [19:00:41] A labs project was created, but then we noped out. [19:02:16] 2010 actually, though I asked in 2009 [19:16:26] could always run your own irc network [19:16:33] though that requires actually running the network [19:18:51] We already do ;) [19:19:47] Prodego: lol I suggested that a few weeks ago [19:21:39] JD|cloud: yea well don't worry it will never happen :) [19:22:09] Reedy: one beyond the recent changes one, or just the recent changes one [19:27:36] odder: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tech/News/2013/29&diff=5642314&oldid=5642122 [19:28:14] odder: i think what i wrote there is slightly too long, eh. [19:29:52] MatmaRex_: :o so we need to remove all the "[[Special:Tags|Tag]]: " in front of the message? [19:30:02] MatmaRex_: that's OK, we can work on it later [19:30:09] thanks for adding this [19:31:15] legoktm: no – you *can* finally do that!:D [19:32:45] er wait. [19:32:49] so what needs to be done? [19:33:07] yeah, you probably need to do that, yes [19:33:15] ok [19:33:16] unless you want to see "Tag: Tag:" everywhere [19:33:28] :) [20:33:04] James_F: speaking of tags, there are still some reports open about VE tag on TWN https://translatewiki.net/wiki/User:Jdforrester [20:46:14] (ignore me for a moment) [20:46:16] !semantic [20:46:16] Not many people around here use Semantic Mediawiki or the other Semantic extensions. You might try asking in #semantic-mediawiki [20:46:28] oh, wrong channel [20:46:44] :0 greg-g!!!! [20:47:00] ;) [20:51:55] Nemo_bis: Eurgh. Successful e-mail from TWN. Not. :-( [20:54:02] James_F: I told you, RSS is only option for now :/ [20:55:18] you can help by finding reviewers for https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/58285/ or merging some enotif settings defaults changes :P [20:55:29] though it would still not help your specific use case here [20:56:36] Nemo_bis: So… I /can't/ help? :-P [20:57:03] you can help others, or yourself with a decent workaround :P [20:57:16] is email really superior to feeds? :) [20:58:15] Nemo_bis: Given I read one and not the other, clearly. :-) [20:58:39] we need a RSS -> email bridge [20:58:48] I think they exist, hmm [20:58:56] you need a client that handles both [20:59:09] (by which i mean, Opera. :P) [20:59:35] I already have one [20:59:41] (by which I mean, Thunderbird) [21:01:58] MatmaRex_: Client-side software for reading e-mail? Wow. [21:02:03] * James_F doesn't live in the 18th Century. [21:02:43] James_F: it's more efficient. [21:02:47] RSS2Jabber gateway ftw [21:02:53] eh, s/RSS/Atom [21:05:33] I love Thunderbird's search [21:06:02] + http://identi.ca/notice/53181733 [21:06:39] I just don't think one can survive foundation-l with Gmail [22:55:36] greg-g: Do you know how to get Jenkins code verification added to a new extension? [22:56:17] kaldari: not at all [22:56:45] kaldari: add a .gitreview file [22:57:10] i think Reedy just did for a bunch who were missing it [22:57:18] it's had a .gitreview file since the first check-in last year [22:57:39] does it need anything special in the .gitreview file? [22:58:18] kaldari: what's the extension called? [22:58:31] Disambiguator. See comments at https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/73008/ [22:58:50] it should look kind of like this https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/73109/1/.gitreview [22:58:57] just the right project name in it [22:59:21] yep. looks identical [22:59:52] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/41380/1/.gitreview [23:00:38] hm,, looks good indeed [23:00:46] then i'd have to ask Hashar [23:01:17] thanks, I'll bug hashar :) [23:43:23] kaldari: integration/jenkins-job-builder-config [23:45:05] * Reedy checks out said reopo [23:50:15] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/73126 for anyone following along