[00:04:57] spagewmf: I would think there would be a better tool than selenium to do that with. maybe not. [00:08:16] gn8 folks [00:56:18] is there a way to get the _numeric_ id of a namespace on a wiki without an API call? [00:59:27] abartov, what data do you already have from the wiki? [01:00:55] abartov: Yes. [01:01:42] It sounds like you want wgNamespaceNumber, though Krenair's question was very good. [01:02:42] abartov, wikimedia/Ijon? Aren't you the guy who posted their cookies publicly on BZ earlier..? [01:03:10] yes, I am. [01:04:06] I'm just surprised there's no special page or something that reveals it. But it makes a kind of sense, since you'd only need it to make an API call. [01:04:33] So what situation are you in? [01:04:41] abartov: you can get it from Special:Search [01:04:43] You have just a page name and nothing else, and want to get the namespace ID? [01:04:52] search for "foo" or something, click a few namespaces and hit enter [01:04:57] then look at the resulting URL [01:05:03] No, I wanted the id for a particular custom namespace, so I could then query for contribs on that namespace. [01:05:22] it has stuff like fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns10=1 with the ns numbers in it [01:05:25] API's siteinfo module. [01:05:33] he said without API though [01:05:58] Right, but he's being silly. [01:06:23] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&meta=siteinfo&siprop=namespaces%7Cnamespacealiases&format=jsonfm [01:06:36] mutante: thanks! [01:06:42] [20:04] I'm just surprised there's no special page or something that reveals it. [01:06:47] Why would a user care? [01:07:07] Susan: yes, the other half of that same IRC line does acknowledge I see the sense, does it not? [01:08:23] I suppose. I'm just surprised you were surprised. [01:08:52] Most internals are internal. Page ID was only very recently exposed to end-users. [01:09:30] transclude the table on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:MediaWiki_namespace ? [01:09:57] Custom namespaces can be difficult to guess. [01:10:46] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Namespaces&action=edit surprisingly doesn't use {{ns:}}. [01:13:32] oh, if it is about one of our wikis: [01:13:41] git clone https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/p/operations/mediawiki-config && grep ExtraNamespace ./mediawiki-config/wmf-config/CommonSettings.php [01:13:44] :) [01:13:55] bbl [01:15:47] yes, the fact it was a custom namespace is what made it difficult to find on the various help pages. [01:17:08] There's a nice jump from 109 to 446 on en.wiki. [01:17:14] That's a lot of guessing and checking. ;-) [01:17:25] Heh, and then it jumps again to 710, nice. [01:18:25] There's a second "Show preview" button now? [01:19:45] > Preview page with this template [01:19:47] What is this? [01:24:37] Susan, try it and find out :) [01:24:53] e.g., change | [[Wikipedia:Main namespace|Main]] to | [[Wikipedia:Main namespace|aoijdpqowjdojqwd]] [01:25:07] Put in 'Wikipedia:Namespace' as the page title and hit the new show preview button [03:13:20] "Preview page with this template" [03:13:23] I don't understand this feature. [03:13:42] There are now two "Show preview" buttons on the edit screen. [03:13:46] Not sure what's going on. [03:14:06] Template namespace only, I guess. [03:15:16] Oh, this is TemplateSandbox. [14:17:54] who is responsible for the flickr uploading part of the upload wizard? it's a bit buggy at present [14:19:38] russavia: kaldari IIRC [14:20:23] russavia: Ryan Kaldari [14:20:25] for sure [14:20:42] russavia, if there's bugs report it on bugzilla [14:23:38] ok great thanks -- does ryan come onto irc at any time? [14:27:59] russavia, yes sometimes [14:28:11] he used the nick 'kaldari' usually [14:37:59] simple bug -- it will not upload sets from flickr [14:38:24] comes up with message along the lines of "You are already uploading xxx.jpg" [14:39:11] russavia: just file a bug, don't rely on private conversations [14:43:15] russavia: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=MediaWiki%20Extensions%20&component=UploadWizard [14:50:10] thx for link [14:52:15] hashar: any idea why jenkins failed here? https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/37233/ [14:52:26] there doesn't seem to be an actual error... [14:52:41] 18:47:48 [exec] PHP Fatal error: Cannot redeclare class TestORMTable in /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/mediawiki-core-phpunit-databaseless/workspace/tests/phpunit/includes/db/TestORMRowTest.php on line 183 [14:52:42] no idea [14:53:10] class being added twice ? [14:53:15] o_O [14:53:22] how would that happen? [14:53:43] noooo idea [14:53:47] also, why is jenkins giving CR-2?... [14:54:05] master seems to be fine : https://integration.mediawiki.org/ci/view/Regressions/job/mediawiki-core-regression-master/ [14:54:14] so CR-2 [14:54:15] hmm [14:54:24] DanielK_WMDE: it is no more doing it now [14:54:33] DanielK_WMDE: I have removed the CR-2 voting earlier this afternoon [14:54:40] ah ok, thanks [14:55:02] whoops [14:55:07] i can actually reproduce that error [14:55:10] didn't expect that :) [14:56:16] o_O [14:56:18] huh [14:56:22] how has that ever worked? [15:02:10] hashar: it'S sometimes hard to find the actual error message in all the console output. [15:02:29] would it be possible to highlight some words, like "error" and "warnign" and "failed" or "failure"? [15:04:41] DanielK_WMDE: I think there is a Jenkins plugin to handle that [15:04:48] DanielK_WMDE: never investigated it out though [15:04:59] i think it would be helpful [15:08:19] <^demon> We've got it installed already. [15:09:03] <^demon> Under post-build actions, there's a lot of log publishing options. One is "Console output (build log) parser" [15:09:28] <^demon> s/parser/parsing/ [15:11:24] ahhh [15:11:35] I am wondering whether Jenkins Job Builder support it already [15:14:01] ah there is https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Log+Parser+Plugin [15:19:06] that looks awesome! [15:33:30] russavia, what is this? [15:33:30] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43322 [17:01:18] Hola! [17:02:13] I am looking for the LocalSettings.php used for Wikidata on test2. Where can I find such things? [17:03:28] <^demon> http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=CommonSettings.php and http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=InitialiseSettings.php [17:03:32] <^demon> We don't use LocalSettings. [17:04:05] <^demon> These files are stored in the operations/mediawiki-config git repo, too. [17:05:24] er... ok [17:05:26] thanks [17:09:20] found'em [17:09:23] cool [18:23:21] Hello. [18:24:06] it.wikivoyage would like to use AFTv4. Should we enable it or recommend them to wait AFTv5 to be fully localizable? [21:46:33] wow, we have so many mailing lists.. like one called "Egyptology Wikipedia" run by a Japanese admin, with a French description :) [21:46:41] hahaha [21:46:44] that's awesome [21:46:56] Wow, that's great [21:48:06] and did you know we have "mediawiki for enterprise" [21:50:53] <^demon> mediawiki-enterprise is a funny list. [21:51:01] <^demon> Never did take off. [21:51:26] <^demon> mutante: Even more fun was the guy about a year or two ago who wanted to basically write a second version of all of our docs....for enterprises. [21:51:27] ^demon, is there a way to enable PHP linting for syntax on extensions in Gerrit? [21:51:38] <^demon> So he started doing stuff like "Installation (enterprise)" [21:51:48] <^demon> superm401: Ask Antoine, that's a jenkins thing. [21:52:04] ugh.. what the enterprise people usually want is more fine-tuned permissions and LDAP hookup, right [21:52:22] yes [21:52:29] mutante: there are weirder examples than egyptology [21:52:29] well, ldap has been done for ages [21:52:32] but they want acl [21:52:56] yea, its a reason why Atlassian Conflunce got used in a former company i was at [21:53:03] Confluence [21:53:03] <^demon> Could be worse. [21:53:13] <^demon> You could've been stuck using Sharepoint's wiki. [21:53:14] could be sharepoint ;) [21:53:18] <^demon> jinx. [21:53:18] ^demon, thanks. Will do. [21:53:26] Nemo_bis: i am going through a lot of them to update all list descriptions :P [21:53:39] i got a google doc from thehelpfulone who contacted all the admins ... [21:53:50] mutante: :o [21:53:55] and not surprising.. many of them do not react anymore [21:53:56] mutante: including Mike Godwin? :D [21:53:57] <^demon> I've also been around long enough to remember when wikitext-l wasn't an actual serious list, but where we sent people to discuss rewriting the parser :p [21:54:11] Nemo_bis: we need to find new list admins for a bunch of them and/or close them [21:54:19] mutante: there's also https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Standardization , it would be nice if more lists were listed [21:54:25] <^demon> "How about taking this up on wikitext-l" -> "Go away from wikitech-l, we don't want to talk about it" [21:54:34] mutante: closing a list only because it has no admins makes little sense [21:54:53] Nemo_bis: i am not saying that, but if they are not used and have no admins... [21:54:59] and just collect spam [21:55:31] or they have active members but not an active admin and the members want an admin to moderate ..bla [21:55:45] mutante: making them discoverable might make them less inactive :) [21:55:57] Nemo_bis: we already did that [21:56:03] <^demon> What if there's an active list and nobody wants to moderate it? [21:56:05] <^demon> [21:56:14] mutante: oh, nice... which lists did you... list? [21:56:29] ^demon: don't try to get rid of your moderator hat [21:56:39] <^demon> I only moderate one list :p [21:56:40] ^demon: then whoever complains about spam first automatically becomes admin:) [21:57:08] mutante: or we give it to Thehelpfulone :p [21:57:22] Nemo_bis: yes, actually we do:) [21:57:25] and he finds new admins [21:57:36] :D [21:58:13] Nemo_bis: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo [21:58:25] <^demon> wikitech-l finds new moderators by the existing mods saying "I don't want to mod anymore, any volunteers?" [21:58:33] <^demon> It's fun, and we've only done it like twice. [21:58:34] there used to be less on this and we had some ticket to "unhide" the ones that dont have reasons to be non-public [21:59:13] also kept pointing that out on almost every ticket to create new lists.. people usually ask for "private list" but make no difference between "show the mere existence of the list" and "let people subscribe" and "have public archives" [21:59:36] Why are some lists not shown on that page at all? [21:59:53] Krenair: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Standardization#Privacy_options [22:00:20] Krenair: some list admins just think thats a way to have less spam [22:00:29] "I actually disagree with this. Security through obscurity is a real thing - there are some lists that simply don't need their existance to be public. I would strongly oppose this. Philippe (WMF) (talk) 18:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)" [22:00:30] oh dear [22:00:38] but its not a good reason i think, the solution to spam is to use the antispam regex in the list admin interface [22:00:55] "don't need" is not equal to "can't be" [22:01:04] Don't need their existence public? [22:01:12] That's a horrible reason to make something private [22:01:41] most list admins don't realize we already have spam detection and we put spam scores into all mail headers [22:01:50] but it is expected that they decide to filter based on that.. or not [22:02:25] mutante: what did you make public exactly? only listing or also archives? [22:02:33] yes, please ask thehelpfulone to make more lists public [22:02:49] Nemo_bis: that might be different for every single list.. i would have to create a dump of all former tickets [22:03:01] there were 186 list with public archives as of 2011-10 [22:03:18] now there are 288 lists listed [22:03:24] I'm not sure the anti-spam reason is valid really [22:03:25] it is up to the list admin to decide if archives are public or not [22:03:40] we just provide defaults when we are asked to create them iniatially [22:03:42] I don't see spam on the public lists I'm on at all really [22:04:00] Krenair: it's about the spam admins have to process [22:04:03] And surely you should just disallow emails from non-subscribed users instead of unlisting it [22:04:10] but yes, the existence of the list, i agree the policy is they should all be on listinfo [22:04:31] Nemo_bis: they need to be taught about the anti-spam regex they can set themselves [22:04:54] Are there any which you'd say are completely not supposed to be seen by anyone but their subscribers/WMF staff? [22:05:10] mail from non-members can be rejected or dropped or queued for moderation.. it may be different for each list as well [22:05:27] there can also be exceptions to permanently accept mail from certain non-members and and .. [22:05:31] Krenair: not supposed to be or mustn't be? [22:06:12] either [22:06:21] they even want to hide more...the email addresses of the admins [22:06:23] "I think there's no reason why our real email addresses should be visible for anyone." [22:06:25] Krenair: there's a big difference :) [22:06:45] but they have listname-owner@lists addresses anyways... sigh [22:06:49] mutante: I think that request was WONTFIXED or officially rejected somewhere already [22:07:00] yes, i think i was even involved [22:07:15] Ok, both. Are there lists who's existence must not be disclosed to anyone except subscribers and mailman admins/shell users/other WMF staff? [22:07:30] And are there lists who's existence probably should not be disclosed to anyone except subscribers and mailman admins/shell users/other WMF staff? [22:07:53] i don't know of any reason to entirely hide the existence of a list [22:08:26] please ask thehelpfulone too [22:08:36] Thehelpfulone, ^ [22:09:28] well the reason is just what Philippe said [22:09:37] "If they don't need to know, why let them know." [22:10:00] So yay, private-by-default [22:10:12] What a stupid reason [22:10:29] For instance, Internal-l /should/ be listed, because one can ask to join it if needed, with a semi-public process. But then nobody cares because everyone knows it exists (and it's decaying now I think?).ù [22:10:55] <^demon> s/decarying/decayed/ [22:11:07] lol [22:11:09] <^demon> I left internal-l years ago because it was basically foundation-l minus like 3 of the worst trolls. [22:11:11] there is a saying ~ "If there is no need to have a law, there is a need to have no law" ... right [22:11:20] or similar when translated [22:11:24] ^demon: plus some even worse trolls :p [22:12:35] and if you want any settings changed on any list, or you want admins to be added etc, please contact the existing list admins first instead of asking someone with a master password to just do things. we really need to decentralize this. [22:12:47] I know engineering, ee, e2, e3-team, ops, and internal-l all exist [22:13:14] There doesn't seem to be any reason to have these unlisted [22:13:28] <^demon> Fwiw, I didn't even know 3 of those lists existed. [22:13:29] There are probably loads more which I am unaware of [22:13:33] <^demon> Fan-tastic. [22:14:03] i am pretty sure on every one of these i said "please consider listing it even if its private" :p [22:15:23] board-l exists [22:16:11] oh.. "ops-related" heh [22:16:26] ops-related is listed [22:16:59] <^demon> ops-related? [22:17:00] <^demon> wtf. [22:17:10] well, it starts with the list admin not working for us anymore :P [22:17:28] Thehelpfulone: more cleanup tables ?:) [22:17:49] siebrand: can you remind me why the l10n list is not listed? :) [22:17:51] am i blind or is the wikimedia-us list not listed? [22:18:10] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/private/ops-related/ [22:18:11] hmm? [22:18:30] <^demon> I believe it's beer o'clock. [22:18:33] aude, doesn't exist [22:18:39] Krenair: yes it does [22:18:40] siebrand: not listed on https://lists.wikimedia.org main page [22:18:53] ^demon: ops-related has 3 members! :) [22:18:54] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-us [22:18:54] Nemo_bis: localisation-team is a non-archived a private mailing list for employees and contractors of WMF on the language engineering tema. [22:18:57] No such list wikimedia-us [22:19:00] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l [22:19:05] ^demon: ben, leslie and ct:) [22:19:17] <^demon> mutante: It's leslie and ct's cabal list ;-) [22:19:24] ^demon: yes:) [22:19:30] mutante: why is ops not listed when ops-related is? ^^' [22:19:44] Nemo_bis: i don't have a good answer [22:19:56] we have no logging of changes [22:20:17] siebrand: I know it is, but we're discussing why private lists would also need not to be listed. I think you prefer that one not to be so you'd be able to give some reasons we've not thoguht of [22:20:31] * aude is admin of wikimediaus-l but don't think i ever got the password [22:20:43] Nemo_bis: but it does not mean you cant go to https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ops [22:20:55] If you know the name you can find the description and confirm existence [22:20:57] its always just ./listinfo/listname [22:21:08] mutante: I know, I'm readin it :p [22:21:08] But the names should be public [22:21:10] I don't give a shit, just as long as whomever thinks they want to subscribe because they didn't read they won't get in, are okay with getting ignored. [22:21:35] siebrand: :D this is a good answer [22:22:10] aude: pharosofalexandria should share it with you [22:22:17] there is just one per list [22:22:37] mutante: i'll poke him again :) [22:22:46] aude: if that fails you can ask us to reset it [22:22:52] if there's a setting there in the admin panel to make it public, we can [22:22:59] mutante: not necessary [22:23:07] Anyone know how many unlisted lists there are? [22:23:13] but its always better to ask other admins first, or we have to tell them about the change , and it tells you if they are still reactive in the first place [22:23:33] * aude nods :) [22:24:22] sure there are more unlisted lists like that one that *should* be listed [22:24:36] no idea how it got that way [22:25:07] i got a lot of "but nobody else needs to see it" as a reply [22:25:09] in the past [22:25:38] i'm glad if you wanna coordinate a general attempt to fix it [22:28:02] * Thehelpfulone waves and reads the discussion he missed [22:30:01] wikimedia-de-by < Bavarian Wikimedia projects :) [22:30:27] run by "church.of.emacs" haha [22:31:28] Ok so I also see fundraising, museum-l, wikiit-admins-l, oversight-l (which is unused) are all unlisted but exist [22:31:51] There is apparently a 'Cultural Partners-l' but I can't find that [22:32:13] still reading scrollback but: [22:32:31] Nemo_bis, I've heard that there could be discussions to disband Internal-l [22:33:26] with the lists that should not be disclosed, I guess this is because that they are archived Krenair so people might try to hack the archives? [22:34:20] mutante, for staff lists? yeah I think they do need a cleanup :P [22:34:54] If you have an admin password that is short enough to brute force before getting blocked by ops, you deserve to be hacked [22:35:19] Or subscriber password I guess [22:35:43] Krenair, I believe mutante can get a list of all the private lists but I don't think he will be abel to release them [22:36:07] yes i can get the list, but please make phillippe tell me to or something [22:36:22] Can you tell us how many there are? [22:36:35] I may already have the full list for all I know [22:36:38] hold on [22:37:07] 444 :o [22:37:19] Oh ok, no I don't have it then :P [22:37:23] and we have ~300 listed? [22:37:34] Wait, you mean 444 total lists? [22:37:34] dont forget this includes closed lists [22:37:37] Or total unlisted lists? [22:37:52] this includes lists that have once been used, then closed, and then just had all members removed and where hidden [22:37:53] heh unlisted lists [22:38:01] total number of lists mailman knows about [22:38:24] var/lib/mailman/bin# ./list_lists | wc -l [22:38:45] btw, Thehelpfulone that list contains all list descriptions [22:39:15] So mutante there are 444 total lists on wikimedia's mailman? [22:39:19] yes [22:41:38] It looks like we have 249 lists on the public list [22:42:16] i can already tell you there is lots of old or unused or closed stuff on it [22:42:26] its not like there are a hundred active secret lists or something [22:42:33] yet,, i am totally for a clean up, yep [22:42:40] 444-249=195, of which we've mentioned at least 13 (1 which is obviously unused) [22:43:46] to be fair there are also lists that thehelpfulone already identified as needing to be closed [22:43:56] but we have not deleted them for real [22:44:12] there may be reasons to not really delete lists because you want to keep the archives for historic reasons [22:44:26] and then it is just way easier to leave and unsub everyone and hide [22:44:47] than putting archive dumps on some backup server elsewhere, where it can not be viewed like in mailman anymore [22:45:02] ^ that doesn't require ops time, which is valuable (the hiding the list) [22:45:09] we only deleted them for real when there were no archives [22:45:25] because the question is always "what to do with archives" [22:47:13] and stuff that is like for a one-time event, "some conference 2008" [22:50:24] btw, this whole thing reminds me of the idea to have list-admins@lists or so to discuss this and announce changes and new lists and answer list admin questions