[08:03:14] Do we have a property for specific travels? [08:03:38] Rejser og udlandsophold [08:03:38] Berlin 1921-23 (s.m. Svend Gade); Frankrig 1924-31; Sverige 1926; Tyskland 1931-33; Rusland 1936. [08:05:57] Travels and stay abroad [08:05:57] Berlin 1921-23 (together with Svend Gade); France 1924-31; Sweden 1926; Germany 1931-33; Russia 1936. [08:05:57] This is especially notable for many artists (painters, for example) [08:06:07] https://www.kulturarv.dk/kid/VisWeilbach.do?kunstnerId=11681&wsektion=alle [08:06:51] If not, could their be created one for this purpose? [08:10:04] Property = Stay abroad. [08:10:05] Discription: A period of time an artist stays in one place (mostly abroad) to educate him/herself. [08:10:05] The statements would be a geographical place. with the ability to add the time periods (start time and end time) [08:26:56] Rodejong: there's a residence property (P551), although it's not specifically for places abroad so you'd need to check the country when using it [08:30:00] Yeah I know, but that is just the problem. These ''stays'' can be years, months, or just weeks. They often visit specific places where many artists are together (for example: Painter collective) There were painter collectives in France, Italy, Germany etc. [08:31:05] So it should be possible to describe these places in a broader view. [08:31:32] I'm not sure why the existing property can't do that, I don't think there's a minimum length they have to have stayed somewhere [08:33:11] Because P551 is a place where one "lives" - come home to. [08:35:07] When you stay 10 weeks in Berlin in a collective, or 6 months P551 would not aply. [08:35:16] apply* [08:35:17] so do they go home every night and go back to another country every day? [08:36:00] no [08:36:22] that was not possible in those centuries. [08:38:52] When you travel around the world, and stay periods of time in several places, you still can have your home address registered, which is P551. [08:41:24] For example: Erik Aabye (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q683806) He lived in Denmark [08:41:32] He made these travels: [08:41:34] Berlin 1921-23; France 1924-31; Sweden 1926; Germany 1931-33; Russia 1936. [08:41:57] The years and periods in between, he was back in Denmark [08:44:09] yes, people can move abroad and move back again [08:44:57] anyway, I can't stop you from proposing a new property, but if you do, I think you need to clarify how people should know which property to use. I would definitely use the existing one for living somewhere for 7 years yet it sounds like you would disagree [08:46:06] Okay. You live in Copenhagen. You have a nice house there. You move to Germany for 6 months to educate yourself. It doesn't seem logic to sell your house for that period of time [08:46:40] but by moving to germany for 6 months, I'm living in germany for 6 months. doesn't matter if I still own a house somewhere else, *I'm* not there [08:46:42] So you do ''not move'', but you visit the place for a longer period of time than a short visit [08:47:11] and many people own second houses somewhere these days, doesn't mean they're living in both simultaneously [08:47:24] Exactly! [08:48:09] P551 is where you LIVE. The new property would be where you STAY [08:48:23] but what's the difference? [08:49:01] Big difference. Where you Stay is not where you settle down [08:49:15] living somewhere for 7 years seems like settling down to me... [08:49:17] you settle down where you live. [08:49:47] Not if you do that for educational purposes, like many painters did [08:50:05] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q683806 [08:50:35] He went to "Kunstgewerbeschule" in Berlin from 1921-1924 [08:51:04] So he stayed there for the purpose of being educated. Not to live, because he liked it so much [08:51:37] in my definition of "live", you live abroad if you study abroad [08:52:12] hmmm. That's not my definition. [08:52:32] other people might have yet another definition, and that's my point - if you want another property, you need to figure out how to make it clear which one to use [08:52:33] I am staying there to educate myself. Not to build a life for my self. [08:53:27] 10:10 Property = Stay abroad. [08:53:27] 10:10 Discription: A period of time an artist stays in one place (mostly abroad) to educate him/herself. [08:53:50] Isn't6 that clear enough then? [08:56:01] But where and how does one create a proposal? [08:56:33] now it seems to overlap with P69 (educated at) :P [08:56:34] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal [08:57:54] Yes. But the problem is... P69 states that it has to be a institute. [08:58:06] A collective is not possible [08:58:22] Can you see the problem? [09:00:01] In those days (1800-1900's) many artists went to collectives where they learned from each other. Visited museums, exhibitions, etc, to look at already existing works, to learn from the masters [09:00:29] there's no reason it couldn't be changed if that one would make sense, we alter properties all the time [09:00:51] That's why lexica like Weilbach name these travels seperate. [09:02:31] By the way. Where do musicians live when they tour the world for a year? [09:03:06] They never stay longer than a week in one country [09:03:36] and they often do not go home in between, except for holidays maybe [09:03:54] where do yjey live then? [09:03:58] they* [09:04:41] It's the same problem isn't it? [09:04:49] just for a different reason [09:04:50] I would say they're not currently living anywhere [09:05:06] maybe on a bus :P [09:05:20] but that's a vehicle not a location [09:05:48] when you write the biography on a musician. He lived his whole life in New York. [09:06:23] That would be a lie then, as he was not living anywhere else in a period of time, other than on that bus [09:06:49] His home address, doesn't count then? [09:07:05] He's just currently ''not at home'' [09:07:47] 6 weeks, 6 months, a year, ... [09:08:23] he is still registered as a residence in New York [09:08:46] saying they lived their whole life in new york still sounds fine to me, languages don't really care if they're contradictory at times :P [09:09:03] true, but in Wikidata.... [09:10:00] yes, which is why it should be clear which property to use (as much as possible) for everyone [09:10:19] I thought I did that? [09:10:44] Anyway... I'll add a proposal, and see where it gets me. [09:11:08] Lets say we agree to disagree to be in an agreement :D [09:16:09] I guess it doesn't help that different countries have different practices... [09:20:57] like the only time I've ever actually had my own tenancy was when I was studying, the rest of the time I've lived with other people [09:22:27] whenever someone wanted "proof" of my address, I would show them a bank statement, and whenever I needed to change addresses, I would just go to the bank and ask them to change it [09:24:22] the concept of having an official address wasn't something I discovered until much later when learning about other countries [09:30:09] and then there's also nothing to stop you having one bank account at one address and another at another :P [09:41:37] hmmm. I guess that that is not a general thing [09:42:01] normally people live at home with their parents [09:43:15] go a year abroad (travel through fx. Australia) (still having their home address) come back, study some more, leave home, make a life for them selves. [09:45:00] That year abroad is not where they lived. maybe they stayed a month around Sidney, Melbourne, Coopers Crossing (not reall I know) etc. [09:45:34] Just saying, they don't ''live'' there [09:45:55] So P551 doesn't comply with this [09:52:40] in the uk, people don't often live with their parents while studying [09:53:40] See. In my example. I was born in The Netherlands. I moved 5 times with all my belongings. Tilburg, Hoorn NH, Tholen, Franeker, Leeuwarden. These are all P551. But before moving to Franeker, I camped for 9 weeks in a caravan in Harlingen, until my place in Franeker was ready. That place is not compliant with P551. (it's not abroad either, but humor me) [09:53:40] Hereafter I moved to Denmark. Stayed with several friends of mine for a month until I got my working permit and my own place. That month is not compliant with P551 either. I was still registered in The Netherlands. [09:53:40] Nothing is as black and white, and we need to have the possibilities to use nuances sometimes that explain the situations better. [09:54:29] In other countries they do ;) [09:56:55] yeah but then it's simple and doesn't help with the more complicated scenarios :P [09:59:07] true [09:59:27] But it's nice though to see things from different perspectives [10:01:55] What is the difference between: ''allowed values'' and ''allowed units''? [10:02:37] allowed values applies to the main values, like "germany" would be an allowed value for the country property [10:03:00] allowed units refers to the units for a number, like metre is an allowed unit for height (the value will be a number, like 10) [10:20:09] Ah okay, thanks nikki [19:47:45] nikki: I remember you understand some Japanese. Can you have a look at the ja items at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_sum_of_all_paintings/Possible_paintings :-) [19:59:42] multichill: I can have a look, but not right now [20:00:14] No rush, but would appreciate it a lot if you have a look at it later! [20:02:06] Hi, is there any tool for changing or removeing incorrect statements? [20:04:58] Aftabuzzaman: there are some tools available; depends on the task which one is the best [20:05:12] Aftabuzzaman: Just the normal interface? And define incorrect? [20:07:52] something like "quickstatements" tool [20:08:23] incorrect like this one https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q5924406&diff=prev&oldid=483025699 [20:11:48] MisterSynergy: what is the name of those tools? [20:16:50] https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q5924406&type=revision&diff=150255514&oldid=137556509 ah, Gerard again. So you're basically looking for an undo Gerard tool [20:16:57] Petscan could work in this case [20:17:06] At least to hunt down the questionable cases [20:22:47] Petscan would have been my suggestion as well [20:23:27] Login to Widar, perform a query, select items to work on, select claim removal string, run [20:25:18] Hmmm. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q21170147&type=revision&diff=376898869&oldid=278811937 [20:32:21] :-) [20:37:34] Thanks multichill, MisterSynergy [21:00:09] hi, do you know any highly respected and active Wikidata users who are likely to join the movement strategy discussion? [21:01:31] I need contact persons to spread the word and ensure that your community is aware about the issue [21:06:03] TarLocesilion: I guess most Wikidata users are active on multiple projects and will see the notices multiple times [21:10:46] multichill, right. however, my job is to help the multilingual communities to get involved, no matter how many of the active users are in fact active on more than 1 wiki. for example, there is a separate Commons community with their problems and priorities. I assume there are also such people on Wikidata, even if they're not numerous [21:28:31] /19/19 [21:37:16] TarLocesilion: Good to hear the multilingual projects get attention too! I guess you already found https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat . I remember User:Ymblanter mentioning he would like to be involved in the strategy thing [21:37:57] And quite a few active Wikidata people also went to the Berlin thing [22:05:58] multichill, yet, 3 sentences from Wikidata compared with 1800 (globally) seem to be an underrepresentation