[00:07:46] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames force-pushed store-sobj from df12514 to e5bc201: http://git.io/fSwhqQ [00:07:46] SemanticMediaWiki/store-sobj e5bc201 mwjames: Sql3StubSemanticData to load SubSemanticData on request... [00:19:43] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames created api-browse-subject (+2 new commits): http://git.io/7-7FCQ [00:19:43] SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject 5d9b495 mwjames: Sql3StubSemanticData to load SubSemanticData on request... [00:19:43] SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject d73d898 mwjames: Update BrowseBySubject to use make use of getSubSemanticData... [00:22:35] [travis-ci] SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki#1714 (api-browse-subject - d73d898 : mwjames): The build failed. [00:22:35] [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/compare/5d9b495e422e^...d73d898cad44 [00:22:35] [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/builds/29016226 [08:35:50] hello [08:35:58] who can help me [08:36:56] who can help me.... [10:25:43] [SemanticResultFormats] JeroenDeDauw pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/VVax4g [10:25:43] SemanticResultFormats/master 7ab15b0 Jaider Andrade Ferreira: Update README.md... [10:25:43] SemanticResultFormats/master 8b2bce1 Jeroen De Dauw: Merge pull request #55 from jaideraf/patch-2... [15:28:56] Yaron: aaaaargh SFFormPrinter needs to be rewritten... it's impossible to work with [15:32:26] Alright, that's fair.. I just need a volunteer for the task. :) [15:33:27] Yaron: probably more than one [15:33:32] Could be. [15:33:46] So, what is it that you're trying to change? Is it a big change or a small one? [15:33:52] Yaron: big [15:34:27] Alright - could you describe it? [15:34:50] Yaron: I want to have support embed in field with multiple instance templates [15:35:18] Ah... [15:37:08] Nikerabbit: at that point, if I understand it correctly, you're talking about three dimensions of data in one page. [15:37:25] Neither SF nor SMW are equipped to handle anything more than two dimensions. [15:37:47] Yaron: I don't see how SMW cares [15:38:05] Well, not that it cares per se; it just can't store the data. [15:38:10] Yaron: SF certainly isn't ready... I found it out the hard way... and I could fix it if the code was easier to work with [15:38:37] I'm using subojects(that's how they are called now?) to store the data so it is not an issue [15:38:52] I'm curious - what do you mean by "the hard way"; did you put in a lot of development effort to try to add that feature? [15:39:12] Yaron: I spent two evenings trying to understand what is going on in the code [15:39:49] Alright. [15:39:59] The "somewhat hard" way, then, I would say. :) [15:40:45] Yaron: anyway, count me as volunteer, but I can't do it alone unless someone funds me [15:40:54] O_O [15:41:00] Yaron: now I'm trying to figure out what is the easiest way to please my client [15:42:04] By the way, I didn't mean to belittle your efforts at all, just that it's all relative. [15:42:53] Nikerabbit: I certainly agree that it would be great to refactor SFFormPrinter::formHTML() - but I'm much more skeptical about making that part of the code more complex. [15:43:42] Back to the subobjects thing - can they really store the data of multiple-instance templates within multiple-instance templates (if that's what you're talking about)?? [15:43:42] Yaron: if refactored, the code can be made simpler, allowing to add more features [15:43:48] s/??/? [15:44:21] Yes, refactoring can definitely allow the SF code to be more complex, but I'm still wary of doing that, unless there's a good reason. [15:45:15] Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your original request. [15:45:30] Yaron: hmm I was wrong... I am not even storing those properties in SMW [15:45:36] Ah, okay. [15:45:53] context: http://sanat.csc.fi/wiki/Lud:palaine [15:46:19] I have multiple "example blocks" which contains same sentence in different languages [15:46:35] I want to have nice form for users to input those [15:46:54] Can someone point me to a documentation page which could serve as starting point to understand the phrase "support embed in field with multiple instance templates" [15:47:16] Right - so each word can have multiple "examples", each of which can have multiple specific examples in a language. [15:47:39] Yaron: I'm only talking about "Esimerkit/Examples" section now [15:47:54] Nemo_bis: this covers it to some extent: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#Multiple-instance_templates [15:48:21] I don't see "Esimerkit" there anywhere. [15:48:46] Yaron: the header changes depending on your language... I assume you see Examples when I see Esimerkit [15:48:52] Ah, okay. [15:48:57] Thanks Yaron. Hyphens also help understanding words more than one at a time. :) [15:49:15] They sure do... (?) [15:49:38] Nikerabbit: fine, so that's what I'm talking about - multiple examples, each of which has multiple translations. [15:49:50] Yaron: then we are talking about the same thing [15:50:18] Alright - so that's three-dimensional data, I believe. [15:50:59] Yaron: so other than "inlining" the example-sentence template (language, sentence) to the example-group (which forces me to hardcode the available languages), do you have any other workaround suggestions? [15:52:19] The other approach, and the one I would probably recommend, is to store each example, or each set of translations for a specific language, on a separate page. [15:52:32] The latter probably makes more sense. [15:53:03] I can also imagine awful JS hack which implements embedded field editor which serializes the things so that SF only sees it as a string ;) [15:53:39] I suppose that's another option, yes. :) [15:54:03] I don't like separate pages for multiple reasons... but that also seems doable [15:54:32] Nikerabbit: is this already a multi-lingual wiki, with the concept of subpages for different languages? [15:55:00] Yaron: no not in that sense [15:55:23] "UI" is multilingual and based on user language, namespaces are used to separate different dictionaries [15:55:27] Alright - well, that's good, then; there's no existing subpage structure that might conflict with this. [15:55:32] Cool. [15:55:56] I feel like I am "overusing" quotes [15:56:12] * Nemo_bis only found an underuse of punctuation above [15:56:14] :) [15:56:45] Yaron: I suggest a session at some future smwcon or smw hackathon to refactor this class [15:57:20] Cool, let me know ahead of time so I can avoid that session. :D [15:57:52] Yaron: you can't hide! [15:59:15] I know, I know... seriously, though, it would be great to refactor that class (really, it's just one monster function) - and maybe conver it to use an existing parsing library, or some such. [15:59:22] (convert) [16:00:12] But again, I think it's a separate discussion from this current issue - that much complexity on one page strikes me a bad idea, for various reasons. [16:01:13] Yaron: please elaborate 1) what makes it complex 2) the varios reasons [16:02:13] Well, it's three dimensions of data - just scrolling through everything on the form page, and trying to figure out what is connected to what, would be complex, I think. [16:03:23] For the parser - if a random call to an "{{Example for language}}" template, or whatever it would be called, shows up somewhere unexpected on the page, the parser wouldn't know where to put it. [16:03:50] That might not be a huge deal, but it's sort of an indication of the parsing trickiness involved. [16:04:08] Plus, as I noted before, you couldn't store the data with SMW. [16:04:39] Yaron: that's prolly not even needed [16:05:01] Yaron: mostly this is replacement for a word document, to make it easier for multiple folks to contribute [16:05:32] Not to sidetrack this conversation, but what is the deal with this wiki, by the way - how does it relate to Wiktionary, or even Wikidata? [16:05:53] Isn't it a duplication of effort? [16:06:20] Yaron: forms are the major selling point, I don't see our users contributing to wiktionary [16:06:39] Yaron: the license is supposed to be free, so wiktionary is free to reuse the data [16:06:45] personally I am not fond of wiktionarIES [16:07:05] Oh, really. [16:07:34] I am enthuastic of WikiData, but it is not dictionary [16:08:08] Well, yes, but it could (and maybe already does) hold information about words. [16:08:19] ...other than just translations, that is. [16:08:27] Yaron: and I'm planning to build APIs which allow for example Special:ContentTranslation to use these wikis (at which point I actually need to add the data to SMW :) [16:09:18] Nikerabbit: so this could be the back-end for a general translator? [16:09:29] (I don't know what Special:ContentTranslation is.) [16:10:01] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation [16:10:22] Ooh... [16:10:25] Yaron: if you have account on beta labs: http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki?title=Special:ContentTranslation&page=Semantics&from=en&to=de [16:11:06] No, it doesn't look like I have an account there. [16:11:19] Yaron: bummer.. do you have twn account? [16:11:28] Maybe; I don't know. [16:12:00] aaaargh :D [16:12:58] Nikerabbit: anyway, this seems like a massive undertaking... I'm surprised the WMF is getting into this. [16:13:08] Not WMF [16:13:22] Nemo_bis: Special:CX is WMF [16:13:55] Right, that's what I was talking about. [16:13:58] k [16:15:03] I will go with the subpage approach [16:15:10] Okay, cool. [16:15:16] do you always use SMW query to find those subpages to include on the main page? [16:15:30] I was going to say - for subpages, you can use "popup" forms to essentially hide the subpages from users. [16:15:55] how does one do popups? [16:16:32] That's what I would do, yes - or rather, I wouldn't even transclude the subpages; rather, I would query their contents so I could display the data grouped by example, not by language. [16:16:52] You make a form a popup just by adding "|popup" to the #formlink or #forminput call. [16:17:19] Yaron: bit hesitant about queries though, they can make page rendering slow [16:17:54] Well, for the size of the data set you want to create, you might be right. [16:18:14] This is meant to hold literally every word in every language? [16:18:32] Yaron: the wiki? nooo [16:18:43] for now it is just dictionary for one language... more might come [16:18:56] but, I did this horrible hack: http://sanat.csc.fi/wiki/Lud/ru and that is slow [16:19:15] Alright - every word in one language, then. (Southern Ludic, I guess.) [16:19:29] just ludic, with all the 3+ variants [16:19:36] for now it's about 6k words [16:19:58] I've never heard of either Ludic or Southern Ludic, by the way. [16:20:02] would be nice to be able to export that wordlist as wikitext and have maintenance script to refresh it [16:20:48] I don't understand - isn't this wikitext already? [16:21:11] Yaron: no, look at the source [16:21:59] Oh, I get it. [16:22:21] Well, once bot scripts are involved, you can do all sorts of things. [16:22:45] Yaron: yes but I don't think I can get query results as wikitext... [16:23:22] You could, yes, via a template query that used . [16:23:55] Anyway, I'm still curious about this wiki - it's a dictionary wiki for Ludic, a language that has 3,000 speakers? [16:24:02] Who would be the user base? [16:24:07] Yaron: teachers and students [16:24:18] Alright. [16:25:00] I guess there's not Wiktionary, Wikipedia etc. for this language? [16:25:10] s/not/no [16:25:10] no [16:25:20] Yaron: you can see them as little sprouts of http://tieteentermipankki.fi/ from which this all started ;) [16:25:22] Alright, now it makes more sense. [16:25:49] there is also one for sami language, not maintained by me.. dunno how well it is doing [16:26:41] The Sami language I've heard of, or at least the Sami people. [16:27:23] Yes, that has 10 times the number of speakers, according to Wikipedia. [16:29:39] Yaron: I'm also working on a project with the aim to create a Sami speaking humanoid robot [16:29:45] Man. [16:29:54] Do they even have those in English? :) [16:36:58] Nikerabbit: for the wiki, is the plan really to allow translations/examples in every language? It seems like Finnish and Russian are by far the most important ones. [16:37:29] Yaron: no I don't expect significantly more languages [16:38:01] Well, in that case, hardcoding the form and SMW properties might be a reasonable solution as well. [16:38:20] i.e., turn it into two-dimensional data. [16:47:49] Yaron: yes but then I need to adapt it for other future dictionaries [16:48:19] Ah, okay, this isn't just about Ludic, then. [16:48:31] How many other 3k persons languages does Finland have? :) [16:49:05] Nemo_bis: it is NOT spoken in Finland [16:49:29] Yaron: the plan is more ambitious yes [16:49:32] Finland Empire At Large [16:49:52] Wow. [16:49:54] Nemo_bis: it has nothing to do with nations [16:50:59] Ooh, it's spoken in the Republic of Karelia! I hadn't heard of that one before, but I have heard of its capital, Petrozavodsk. [16:51:24] Nikerabbit: no idea what that means [16:51:25] That's where our Russian exchange program students in high school went to. [16:51:35] Yaron: I first new of Karelia in Risk [16:51:42] * knew [16:51:53] Karelia is in Risk? I didn't remember that. [16:52:05] Nemo_bis: it just means that do not talk about countries, please [16:52:44] Yaron: might be a false remembrance, it's been a while [16:53:06] Nemo_bis: I don't think it was Karelia. [16:54:20] Hm, last time I played with the friend who had Risk was... 2001 I think. Yes, definitely can't trust my memory about it [16:54:38] Last time I played was in the 80s, I think. [16:54:45] But I played it a lot back then. [16:55:37] We only played it in bored summers on the Alps [16:56:48] Nikerabbit: is the idea just to support smaller languages? Or could there potentially be such a wiki for every language, a la Wiktionary? Or is it speculative at this point? [16:58:24] Yaron: the idea is to support a particular Finnish entity which has built and supports building dictionaries [16:58:44] Alright. [16:58:57] And robots, I guess. :) [16:59:05] Yaron: that's unrelated [16:59:10] Alright. [16:59:12] that's for my PhD [16:59:32] Wow! [17:01:36] Well, in any case, if each of those specific minor languages would only get translated into a few languages, the hardcoding might work as a general strategy. [17:58:48] [SemanticMediaWiki] nischayn22 opened pull request #377: Fix for RDF export of Subobjects (master...subobject_export_fix) http://git.io/HBkWxw [18:18:29] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/G03Bjw [18:18:29] SemanticMediaWiki/master 92714db mwjames: Merge pull request #366 from SemanticMediaWiki/store-sobj... [18:21:14] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bPPepQ [18:21:14] SemanticMediaWiki/master 4057899 mwjames: Update RELEASE-NOTES.md... [18:27:39] [SemanticMediaWiki] nischayn22 opened pull request #378: Fix for subobjects for RDF stores (master...sparql_subobject_fix) http://git.io/V_cORw [18:29:38] [SemanticMediaWiki] nischayn22 closed pull request #344: Fixes RDF export of subobjects (master...master) http://git.io/HG_thA [20:03:50] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames created rdf-dump (+1 new commit): http://git.io/TIoFvw [20:03:50] SemanticMediaWiki/rdf-dump da2a100 mwjames: Modernize dumpRDF script... [20:10:33] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames opened pull request #379: Modernize dumpRDF script (master...rdf-dump) http://git.io/SKbXng [20:11:57] Hi all, I'm following up on an issue I opened on GitHub regarding Semantic Result Formats that is preventing me from being able to proceed with a SMW upgrade on my wikis. I'm not sure if / when it will get resolved, so I thought check here to see if there's any way to work around the issue. [20:12:03] https://github.com/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticResultFormats/issues/35 [20:12:42] Oops, wrong link: https://github.com/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticResultFormats/issues/51 [21:50:31] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames force-pushed rdf-dump from da2a100 to 466bd4a: http://git.io/Ju-mUQ [21:50:31] SemanticMediaWiki/rdf-dump 466bd4a mwjames: Modernize dumpRDF script... [22:51:11] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames force-pushed api-browse-subject from d73d898 to aa04c63: http://git.io/L1PjAg [22:51:11] SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject aa04c63 mwjames: Update BrowseBySubject to use make use of getSubSemanticData... [23:09:19] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames force-pushed api-browse-subject from aa04c63 to 9f12bc5: http://git.io/L1PjAg [23:09:19] SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject 9f12bc5 mwjames: Update BrowseBySubject to use #366... [23:10:04] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames opened pull request #380: Update BrowseBySubject to use #366 (master...api-browse-subject) http://git.io/5iRVJQ [23:29:53] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames force-pushed api-browse-subject from 9f12bc5 to 75dcdda: http://git.io/L1PjAg [23:29:53] SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject 75dcdda mwjames: Update BrowseBySubject to use #366... [23:45:03] [SemanticMediaWiki] mwjames pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/z8LMHA [23:45:03] SemanticMediaWiki/master 0985607 mwjames: Merge pull request #380 from SemanticMediaWiki/api-browse-subject... [23:49:20] [travis-ci] SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki#1728 (master - 0985607 : mwjames): The build was broken. [23:49:21] [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/compare/4057899c09a0...098560790f40 [23:49:21] [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/builds/29105612