[04:46:12] (PS1) Mwjames: Add 'SG\PropertyRegistry' [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117159 [04:52:49] (CR) Mwjames: "You still have the wfMsgForContent issue in:" [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117159 (owner: Mwjames) [08:18:06] (CR) Foxtrott: "Thanks, James! What will be the minimum MW and SMW version when I merge this?" [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117159 (owner: Mwjames) [08:35:29] (CR) Mwjames: "It depends a bit on what you what to support, 1.19 is supportable as long as SMW is holding the cards to 1.19." [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117159 (owner: Mwjames) [08:39:10] [travis-ci] SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki#1033 (store - 525d858 : mwjames): The build is still failing. [08:39:10] [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/commit/525d8588b044 [08:39:10] [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/SemanticMediaWiki/SemanticMediaWiki/builds/20193062 [08:59:43] (PS1) Mwjames: Add SG\CacheInvalidator + unit tests [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117168 [09:11:30] (CR) Mwjames: "You should test this a bit more carefully in order to catch any cut-and-past issues that slipped through my fingers. (There are unit tests" [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117168 (owner: Mwjames) [09:26:24] (CR) Mwjames: "Just to raise awareness (not really part of this PR) during testing the LingoParser showed some ought behaviour (tested with MW 1.23)." [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117168 (owner: Mwjames) [10:02:11] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects#Multilingual_SemanticMediaWiki [11:24:05] Hello everyone. I have a simple task I can't seem to figure out. I need to create an ultra-simple mediawiki site, but am getting confused between properties, pages, blah blah. Also, for some reason the extension isn't working correctly for parameters. I need something built, can pay $75 for it, should take someone with knowledge maybe 10 minutes. [11:24:58] Here's the deal: I want a MediaWiki with the ability to add lyrics for songs. Each page should have writer, composer -- and lyrics. The lyrics should show correctly; the writer and composer should point to a page which lists their various songs; everything should be edited using Semantic Forms. Anyone interested? [11:33:46] no one? [13:00:15] Nemo_bis: do you and Nikerabbit want to talk further about the SMW/Translate project at some point? [13:07:08] (CR) Cicalese: Text properties, semantic query results, optional hide subtitle. (2 comments) [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 (owner: Cicalese) [13:12:21] Hello, i'm having a very basic problem. Trying to use {{{parameter}}}, but it doesn't work. The extension works for other stuff. Any ideas? [13:18:54] Yaron: sure, do you have something in your mind? :) [13:20:15] DANTQ: try "{{#tag:poem|{{{parameter}}} }}" instead. [13:20:50] Nemo_bis: perhaps the part that reads "There are lot of places where properties are displayed: many special pages, queries, property pages. Some thinking is required to find out a sensible way to handle translations on all these places." [13:24:36] How does Translate know, by the way, what language to display text in? Does it go by the URL, by the user's specified language in their preferences, by cookies (based on their previous clicks), or some combination? [13:24:58] Yaron: Translate doesn't display anything [13:25:28] I think this would be similar to what done for CentralNotice, what languages to pick is something managedd by CentralNotice itself. [13:25:43] Sorry, that doesn't clarify anything to me. [13:25:48] Sure [13:26:44] Practically speaking, I think all translations would be stored in a Translations: namespace (unless you need some specific ns for permissions reasons), then would be transcluded on the various pages like system messags based on the user interface. [13:27:05] Interface language selection is something that ULS does, not Translate. [13:27:30] Oh - is there already an extension that relies on a "Translations" namespace, or would this be a new feature? [13:28:42] CentralNotice has some additional passages: translations happens in the CNBanner namespace, where everyone has editing permissions (as in the standard Translations namespace), then translation admins have the possibility to change "workflow states" and the appropriate state publishes translations, i.e. moves them to the MediaWiki namespace where they are used like normal system messages by the banners [13:30:05] Where workflow states are this thing https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Translate/Message_group_states [13:30:58] Did you see my question? [13:31:38] Yes, did I not answer it? CentralNotice does [13:31:52] Ah, okay. [13:32:12] So would CentralNotice also need to be installed, in order to do this SMW translation thing? [13:32:19] Except that it renames the ns and adds some other passages [13:32:42] Noo, hopefully there are all the necessary hooks in Translate now [13:33:03] If not they'll have to be extended [13:33:13] Sorry, I'm confused: in what extension is the "Translations" namespace specified? [13:34:25] Yaron: "Translations" is the standard Translate namespace for page translation [13:34:39] So, the answer is, the "Translate" extension? [13:35:05] All translation units from translatable pages are copied to Translations namespace and managed there [13:35:48] Yes, multilingual SMW would be an integration with Translate which automatically sends stuff to Translate for translation and fetches the translations from it [13:35:59] Or at least that's what I understood :) [13:36:22] So yes, it's defined in "Translate"? Or is it defined in ULS or something? [13:36:34] Yes, it's in Translate [13:36:39] Alright, thanks. [13:37:06] ULS only tells core what language to use [13:37:34] Okay - so how does it know: URL, preferences, cookies, some combination? [13:39:43] Accept-languages and cookies for the preference if one is unregistered [13:40:30] The URL is just how the preference is set, sending people to setlang=X works but is hacky and makes little sense [13:42:49] Alright - what about for registered users? [13:46:21] Yaron: it just edits the preference [13:46:48] (And adds some more preferences for the webfonts and IME stuff.) [13:47:22] Sorry, I don't understand - what is "it", and what is being edited? [14:16:14] it = ULS [16:03:20] Yaron: what's left to clarify? [16:03:54] Perhaps just visiting http://translatewiki.net/ as registered and unregistered user will clarify better than many words. [16:03:56] Well, when you wrote "It just edits the preference", what is the preference being edited? [16:04:09] The language preference shown in the i18n section of Special:Preferences [16:04:59] Oh, that's strange - I would think ULS would *read* that preference, but not *modify* it. [16:05:36] No, ULS is an aid to set the preference. And it gives unregistered users an equivalent feature even though they don't have preferences. [16:05:46] Alright, that's pretty neat. [16:06:29] So, bringing things back to SMW: is the idea that, if a user sees a query, they would get an interface for changing the language, in the manner of Translate's tag? [16:06:39] languages [16:07:00] ...or would they just see the results in their preferred language? [16:09:31] Yaron: the extensivity (?) of the project is variable I think. [16:09:45] Usually the preferred language, in MediaWiki, is used for interface. [16:10:19] Alright, that's fair. That would certainly be the easiest option - to only customize the displayed language for logged-in users. [16:10:28] So for everything that is "interface" the preference should be applied automatically. Think of the sidebar, for instance. [16:10:44] Right. [16:10:53] Yes but with ULS you can also set interface language for unregistered users. [16:11:12] There is a cookie that basically is like setting ?uselang=X to every page but less hacky. :) [16:11:18] Alright. Right. [16:11:31] A completely different thing is translating the content. [16:11:45] Well, we're talking about content. [16:11:49] I can put the whole English Wikipedia in SMW values, but we're not going to handle translation of all that [16:11:54] I mean, query results are all content. [16:12:23] Yes, that's why it can be confusing what we're talking about, and frankly I know too little of SMW to tell myself. [16:13:01] I imagine we would make a catalog of all the names/strings that SMW hardcodes, like properties names or whatever [16:13:32] Property names don't really matter - users rarely see them, at least in a well-structured SMW site. [16:13:47] You see, something I didn't know. :) [16:13:59] Ideally, SMW values are all stored via infobox-style templates, if that makes sense. [16:14:03] For instance, how do I translate the headers of a table generated by #ASk here: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/User:Nemo_bis?uselang=it [16:14:21] Hm, right [16:14:56] Well, okay - property names do show up in query results, especially with the "table" format - but you can set aliases for those in the query. [16:15:00] When you say "if a user sees a query", what do you mean? Do you have an example URL? [16:15:19] Oh, aliases [16:15:48] By "if a user sees a query", I meant, "sees a query result" - like that table you just pointed to. [16:16:42] For the aliases thing, instead of "{{#ask:{[Category:Cities]]|?Has population}}", you could have "{{#ask:[[Category:Cities|mainlabel=City|?Has population=Population}}". [16:16:48] It's usually nicer to do that. [16:17:12] ....though how i18n stuff would fit into that syntax, I don't know. [16:17:30] How do people translate that stuff usually? [16:17:36] They don't. [16:17:51] Is SMW in use on some multilingual wikis? [16:18:16] It would be useful to have some more guinea pigs/stakeholders [16:19:05] I actually can't think of any... my guess is that there are such things, but that the data is either all displayed in one language, or else stored separately in each language and displayed likewise. [16:19:17] Well, translatewiki.net would be a stakeholder, no? [16:19:47] Sure, but we risk being too self-centred [16:20:04] Certainly it's the wiki where stuff will be tested [16:23:04] Thanks Yaron, I feel like I learnt something about SMW :) I'll tweak the project description a tiny bit [16:23:27] I'm not that concerned about it - in my experience, the big difference comes between having zero stakeholders, and one - anything more than that is nice, but not absolutely crucial. [16:23:32] Okay, cool. [16:23:49] That's true :) [16:24:20] The other big difference is between having the code just in a gerrit patch and having it running on a real wiki, however small or used by few people [16:34:11] Yaron: I think "This can be done in some isolated steps" is the biggest strength of this project. Once we have a general sense of the plan, we should IMHO file a series of bugs for each component. [16:34:55] Like, I think there are many different things that SMW displays in special pages, not only properties and forms labels [16:35:25] Like what? [16:35:51] Yaron: I have no idea, that's my problem. :P [16:36:23] Well, what made you think that? I mean, what kind of thing are you talking about? [16:38:44] Yaron: if I go to https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:SpecialPages , I see 5 Special:Create* links and each of those special pages asks me some strings [16:39:12] Ah, okay - those are all defined by the Semantic Forms extension, actually. [16:39:13] I think I never used one of those special pages, I must admit [16:39:26] Even Special:CreateProperty, confusingly enough. [16:39:28] OK, in fact that's one of the two bullets in the proposal :) [16:39:51] Right. [16:40:14] Yes, changing all of those to be able to handle multiple language strings would be difficult... [16:40:59] ...even if it just involved adding hooks, so that the Translate extension were the one making those helper forms more complex. [16:41:11] (Which would probably be the cleaner solution.) [16:41:59] I don't know what the best approach would be. Maybe it's better to just ask people who want multilingual SMW sites to hand-create all the necessary pages. [16:42:27] What do you mean the necessary pages? [16:44:17] The pages for the properties, templates, forms and categories. [16:47:15] Yaron: all the things are defined in wiki pages, right? [16:47:19] Yes. [16:47:20] Check the diff please https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects&diff=921966&oldid=921849 [16:47:45] Yaron: in an ideal world you'd only need to mark those pages for translation and the Translate syntax wouldn't break anything [16:47:52] Well, as we're talking about now, maybe it's not worth modifying the Special:Create* pages at all. [16:48:03] Sure. [16:48:53] The more I think about it, the more I think getting into the Special:Create* helper forms is just too much work for this project. [16:50:03] Yaron: then we need to define some steps that are less steep [16:50:19] Smaller and easier chunks to start with [16:50:34] I don't understand. [16:50:50] I'm just talking about removing one part of the project - it's not related to any of the rest of the project. [17:00:30] Hm, isn't it? [17:03:53] Not from a code perspective. [18:14:41] Nemo_bis, Yaron: In my mind I had the (easy) translation of forms as the highest priority [18:15:02] That's fair. [18:16:25] It might not be that complex to do... it might just be a matter of adding a hook in to SF or something, so that the Translate extension can handle tags in the form definition, no? [18:17:11] Actually, it's somewhat surprising that that doesn't work already, since SF already calls the MW parser on the form definition when showing the form. [18:17:27] * Nemo_bis never tried, it's Nikerabbit setting the path [18:17:48] Yaron: the main problem is that translate extension generates separate page for each language... that doesn't play nicely with forms [18:18:06] Right, that's true... [18:18:19] Yaron: but there is way to have the same page (=form) appear in different languages (with appropriate caching so that worng language is not displayed) [18:18:34] Right... [18:18:54] So it's the caching that's the problem right now? Or is there more than that? [18:19:06] nope [18:19:15] Does SMF load subpages at all? [18:19:17] I feel like we've talked about all this already, but I've forgotten all the details. :( [18:19:19] the main problem is that the syntax for doing that is ugly [18:19:26] and it does not integrate with translate [18:19:40] Nemo_bis: it's SF, not SMF. (The "M" is for "Media".) [18:19:42] and thirdly, there are few elements in forms where it does not work [18:20:29] Nikerabbit: I don't know if anything can be done about the ugly syntax... [18:21:27] Nemo_bis: It doesn't load subpages on its own, but one would think that the presence of and tags would lead to a loading of the necessary subpages. [18:21:30] Yaron: if not possible to simplify, it can be automatically generated or automated, I believe [18:21:40] http://tieteentermipankki.fi/mediawiki/index.php?title=Lomake:K%C3%A4site&action=edit has an example of this thing done manually [18:21:49] anyway, off to sauna again [18:22:09] Oh, cool. That doesn't look so bad... [18:22:13] Nice! [19:07:48] (PS2) Mwjames: Add SG\CacheInvalidator + unit tests [extensions/SemanticGlossary] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/117168 [20:53:20] (PS2) Cicalese: Text properties, semantic query results, optional hide subtitle. [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 [21:19:04] (CR) Yury Katkov: [C: 1] Text properties, semantic query results, optional hide subtitle. [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 (owner: Cicalese) [22:52:56] (CR) Yaron Koren: "Looks good! I only have one comment now..." (1 comment) [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 (owner: Cicalese) [23:50:40] (PS3) Cicalese: Text properties, semantic query results, optional hide subtitle. [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 [23:52:15] (CR) Yaron Koren: [C: 1] Text properties, semantic query results, optional hide subtitle. [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 (owner: Cicalese) [23:54:28] (CR) Cicalese: "Not nitpicky at all :-) Done!" [extensions/SemanticTitle] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/114957 (owner: Cicalese)