[00:56:24] (PS1) Mwjames: Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 [00:56:27] (CR) jenkins-bot: [V: -1] Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [00:59:15] (CR) Mwjames: "Jenkins what?" [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [00:59:38] (PS2) Mwjames: Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 [00:59:40] (CR) jenkins-bot: [V: -1] Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [01:00:33] (CR) Mwjames: "Really ???? !!!!!!" [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [01:01:04] (CR) Yuvipanda: "Jenkins is having a little trouble after the Gerrit upgrade. People are looking at it." [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [03:08:08] (PS3) Mwjames: Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 [03:12:16] (CR) Mwjames: [C: 2] Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [03:13:56] (Merged) jenkins-bot: Travis#185.2 [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82781 (owner: Mwjames) [03:23:06] [travis-ci] wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-SemanticMediaWiki#186 (master - a1bf9b8 : mwjames): The build was fixed. [03:23:06] [travis-ci] Change view : https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-SemanticMediaWiki/compare/000508ce42ae...a1bf9b8202cd [03:23:06] [travis-ci] Build details : http://travis-ci.org/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-SemanticMediaWiki/builds/11001324 [03:24:54] (PS3) Mwjames: Remove addPropertyValue logic from ParserData (further compartmentalize of ParserData) [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/75295 [03:28:14] (CR) Mwjames: [C: 2] Remove addPropertyValue logic from ParserData (further compartmentalize of ParserData) [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/75295 (owner: Mwjames) [03:29:42] (Merged) jenkins-bot: Remove addPropertyValue logic from ParserData (further compartmentalize of ParserData) [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/75295 (owner: Mwjames) [04:32:38] (PS1) Mwjames: Rename addPropertyValue -> addDataValue [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82797 [04:52:21] (PS2) Mwjames: Rename addPropertyValue -> addDataValue [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82797 [04:55:25] (CR) Mwjames: [C: 2] Rename addPropertyValue -> addDataValue [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82797 (owner: Mwjames) [04:57:39] (Merged) jenkins-bot: Rename addPropertyValue -> addDataValue [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82797 (owner: Mwjames) [06:57:36] Hi There! I'm new to SMW, taking a look at it since a week. I will be using it for my bachelor thesis. Has somebody here some recommendations or some time for Q&A? [07:00:01] why do you intend to use smw ? [07:00:47] I'm not fixed to that, but my work will be to organize business knowledge in a wikipedia a more flexible and structured way [07:01:06] ans so far i've looked semantic web technologies are just fine for that [07:01:13] and no much alternatives to SMW it seems [07:03:05] I guess i will be using 4store as RDF Triplestore so i can use SPARQL Querys [07:03:07] my exposure to SMW has mostly been "why is this not working" [07:03:23] heh, I filed some bugs because 4store didn't work at all for SMW [07:03:25] hehe, still youre here [07:03:31] ok [07:03:36] well, I still have a legacy app at work that hasn't been replaced [07:03:47] I#ve just set up the basiscs of MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle [07:03:52] havent tryed 4store yet [07:04:34] you have some ideas how to solve this problems or some other solutions? [07:06:20] I've mostly given up on MW being anywhere near sane, and SMW doing anything properly [07:06:38] good ideas, but ... ideas alone don't get you anywhere [07:06:59] yeah [07:07:27] that is my biggest worry right now [07:07:49] MediaWiki and SMW feel like Software from the 90's [07:08:17] Still, SMW and Semantic Web in general seems to be a very genius thing [07:08:26] something most people wouldn't even understand [07:08:35] but this is also its biggest problem [07:08:48] my job is to make something that people can use and understand [07:09:14] the templates, for example, are horrible to do anything more complex [07:09:22] e.g. counting, adding, doing basic math [07:09:37] yes.. but thats a MediaWiki Problem in origin I think [07:09:44] so if you intend to do more than *display* stuff, well, you're screwed [07:10:07] and using SPARQL and some display Plugins? [07:14:34] but this wouldn't be too much of a problem. If its hard on me to make Querys thats OK - but for the user it should be easy to add and manage content/data. Thats what I'm not sure of [07:14:35] if it works it's nice :) [07:14:35] *if* ... I've seen random misbehaviour that was mostly due to not considering input validation [07:14:35] or things like "I have no idea what your query meant, so here's 10 random things that might be a valid result, or not" [07:14:35] hehe [07:15:25] ok, but that may be a semantic web thing in general [07:15:27] (which is hilarious the first few dozen times, and then you wonder what ... brain ... happen ... why ... developer) [07:15:43] no, it's just MW/SMW being derpy. it refuses to consider errors [07:16:53] input validation ... that means having the correct datatypes? [07:17:33] yeah, for MW everything is a string [07:17:38] and string is ok [07:17:51] hard to enforce things when the machinery is too lenient :\ [07:18:58] (I haven't found out a good way to prevent someone from changing e.g. [[Category::Foo]] to a non-existing Category, so you can only hope people don't do too much stupid) [07:20:42] hehe.. but thats something you should consider [07:20:56] users always do stupid things.. its just a matter of time [07:21:09] yes, and sometimes you wish to restrict input to certain values [07:21:12] this shouldn't break the thing when it happens [07:21:20] or you should prevent it to happen somehow [07:21:21] e.g. only allow categories that exist [07:21:45] ok, but then youre looking for a more closed system right? [07:22:21] http://aksw.org/Projects/OntoWiki.html [07:22:24] yes, for my needs using a "proper" web-framework and writing a custom app makes a lot more sense [07:22:40] what are youre needs? [07:22:47] consistent data :) [07:22:57] well.. you still could use a RDF Database with SPARQL [07:23:08] and just have an interface that enforces strict data [07:23:23] so you have the flexibility and still the strictness [07:23:42] or I just use a SQL DB which maps quite well to the datasets I have [07:24:40] ok, but then its a matter of the right choosing of database structure in general [07:25:02] the problem with wikis is that they hide all that from you [07:25:04] a SQL database is no real competitor to RDF Databases imho [07:25:08] makes sense for some problems [07:25:14] both is way to different [07:25:15] but in general it leads to madness [07:25:28] RDF makes sense for graph-like datastructures [07:25:39] SQL makes sense for well-structured data [07:25:54] it makes especially sense if the structure of your data changes often and cannot be forseen [07:26:18] I haven't run into such a situation yet [07:26:27] either I know what I'm doing, or not ;) [07:26:31] if you can make a definitve schema of your data and youre sure it wont change to often, then youre better of with MySQL ;) [07:27:21] no, definitely not [07:27:25] I like consistent data [07:27:27] hm, i've used Symfony 2 a while ago [07:27:32] and Doctrine as ORM [07:27:42] (e.g. store a date of "2013-09-123" in mysql ... hahaha ... FUUUUUU) [07:28:00] also, php ... hmm ... no! :) [07:28:09] with most ORMs you can migrate your database Scheme with only a medium pain in the ass [07:28:23] Or use Django if you prefer Python ;) [07:28:29] Flask actually [07:28:31] was nice to work with, too [07:28:42] it's designed the way I'd do it [07:29:48] Hm, writing a bigger system on a own, its also a risk [07:30:16] I know, but with SMW there's also performance problems [07:30:43] when a page view takes 40k DB queries and ~60 seconds walltime ... well ... burn it with fire [07:30:50] it's designed for small datasets :( [07:31:31] My professor showed my his SMW Experiments [07:31:37] he compained about bad performance too [07:31:50] he told me to look into it and check if there's something to do about [07:32:20] I guess Graph Based Databases are not easy on a server [07:32:26] yeah, don't use SMW ;) [07:32:42] MW already uses the DB as a NoSQL storage [07:32:51] and SMW just piles on random whatever [07:33:16] well. its RDF Triples i guess [07:33:20] of couse its random piles [07:33:23] thats the way it works [07:34:03] MW has a "BagOfBytes" storage class that's compressed serialized PHP objects [07:34:13] that's the worst abuse of a SQL DB I can remember [07:34:16] hehe [07:34:20] ok, yes thats right [07:34:26] it's almost like these people hate SQL :) [07:34:33] (because MySQL, ok, that's understandable) [07:34:45] well.. NoSQL Databases are a nice thing too [07:35:01] but almost no server has one installed [07:35:08] so you abuse mysql just for everything [07:35:20] no, they aren't [07:35:31] it's just people thinking "this is too much work, I can do it better" [07:35:39] and mysql ... no! :) [07:35:54] hm? [07:36:10] mysql is a horrible thing [07:37:11] hm, why? [07:37:14] its a bit like PHP [07:37:21] People often hate it [07:37:34] but it works just fine if you get used to the "Frankenstein" Way :D [07:37:46] yeah, it's crap [07:37:46] and since everyone is using it, you get to solutions very fast [07:37:52] I can't tolerate such badness [07:38:04] well, I hate the way PHP is designed [07:38:09] I mean, silent corruption of data? why do I even bother with a database then [07:38:13] but I've used both Python and PHP for Web development [07:38:21] And i totally understand preferring PHP [07:38:25] if you want to get the job done [07:38:54] I prefer correct over fast [07:39:14] You can do good programs in both languages [07:39:17] it depends on the programmer [07:39:26] you can't write correct code in php [07:39:44] it doesnt make it as easy as python, thats true [07:39:46] http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ # read that [07:39:56] no, you *cannot*. The language is inherently unstable [07:40:22] I'll do [07:40:25] (later) [07:41:31] Hm, but I disagree with this partly [07:41:45] You can do very good Web Software with PHP [07:42:05] In Fact I havent seen much good Python Web Software anywhere [07:42:16] "foo" == TRUE, and "foo" == 0… but, of course, TRUE != 0. [07:42:23] ^^ that is hilarious [07:42:39] yeah, python has been infected with people that don't like use brain, is srsly hard [07:42:46] yes, it is.. but if you know it and keep youre safeguards [07:42:55] you can work around those strange behaviours [07:43:50] and .. python web performance isnt really good [07:44:13] I do understand People going over to Scala [07:45:02] Python.. It feels like it doesnt want to be a web programming language [07:45:24] the community i mean, not the language itself [07:46:12] I'm doing <30msec per page now with Flask [07:46:26] that's ... well ... it makes me not worry about performance that much [07:46:29] well i was doing <10ms per page with symfony 2 [07:46:36] and thats a full fledged framework [07:46:39] compared to Drupal, LOL [07:46:46] drupal is no framework [07:46:50] its a CMS [07:46:57] you cant compare that [07:47:02] it's a pile of madness :) [07:47:22] well, it works very well for a lot of people [07:47:25] and it gets used [07:47:42] yeah, pays well [07:48:02] I suppose you're the idealistic kind of programmer [07:48:04] I like drupal for its badness [07:49:24] Well.. program a software by yourself and look at the code 8 years later [07:49:31] i guess you would call it the same ;) [07:49:41] and its easier if youre just doing it alone [07:49:49] $ php -r 'var_dump("61529519452809720693702583126814" == "61529519452809720000000000000000");' [07:49:49] bool(true) [07:49:52] getting a community to work on a big project like this [07:49:55] ^^ so funny [07:50:25] well, thats not a real world case [07:50:39] and likely has to do with C under the hod [07:50:41] hood* [07:50:49] it is, it's what made password validation so broken [07:51:46] ah ok I see [07:52:22] well, i have to go afk now [07:52:28] have a good time [07:52:50] and good luck with finding/choosing a good solution [07:57:52] :) [09:16:08] re [12:19:30] (PS3) Mwjames: (Bug 52396) use getSubject()->getDBkey() instead [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/77126 [12:35:05] (PS4) Mwjames: (Bug 52396) use getSubject()->getDBkey() instead [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/77126 [12:37:22] (CR) Mwjames: [C: 2] (Bug 52396) use getSubject()->getDBkey() instead [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/77126 (owner: Mwjames) [12:38:52] (Merged) jenkins-bot: (Bug 52396) use getSubject()->getDBkey() instead [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/77126 (owner: Mwjames) [13:18:49] yaron: thanks. Semantic Tasks is exactly what I need ;) [13:19:09] Cool! [13:19:58] why do I try to write something myself before looking if it exists? :p [13:21:17] weeeh. Only works for SMW 1.5 and 1.6 :/ [13:23:21] ok, the page is just out of date ;) [13:24:52] *phew* [13:28:25] hmm, but it doesn't really work the way I need it.. [13:31:49] well, it's a start. Thanks anyways [13:32:41] Care to provide any more information? [13:35:04] well, I have an already set up collection of forms/templates that provide a calendar for dead-lines, appointments, meetings, todos, etc [13:36:05] actually all I want to do is send mails to ResponiblePerson on all dates that have [[DateCategory::ToDo]] [13:36:38] the extension has "Assigned to" and "Target Date" hardcoded [13:36:44] so either I change the code [13:36:55] or I change like 10 templates/forms in my wiki [13:38:00] oh an there should also be mail to a general address if there is no responsible person set for a [[DateCategory::Concert]] [13:38:02] and so on [13:38:22] I guess it's too special to use an already existing extension for that [13:40:29] but it's a good start for me to see how to run queries from the commandline ;) [13:45:07] sven^: ah, okay. Well, you don't really need to change any forms - just add those particular properties to the templates. [13:45:55] That by itself would do everything you need, no? [13:46:11] There might not be a need for a default email address. [13:46:32] yeah, that could work [13:46:44] but I guess I will just write something on my own [13:46:58] stuff like the task update Mails are not good [13:47:01] (for me) [13:47:19] I don't want to spam 50 ppl with mails everytime a task is changed [13:47:47] You mean, when the date of the task is changed? [13:50:00] for example [13:50:28] I don't need/want the ArticleSave hook at all [13:50:34] I just want the cronjob part [13:50:59] But if the deadline for a task changes, don't you want everyone to know right away? [13:51:10] nah [13:51:16] most of the stuff is fixed [13:51:34] it volunteer work. We meet every week and plan concerts and stuff like that [13:52:16] dates for already booked concerts almost never change [13:52:37] Okay. In that case, people won't get spammed, I don't think. [13:52:53] the responsible person can change [13:52:55] or the caterer [13:53:06] or the light/audio-technican [13:53:17] Oh - so ST sends out an email any time a page is modified? [13:53:29] that's how I understand it, yes [13:53:38] I didn't think that was the case... [13:53:39] I haven't looked at that part of the code yet [13:53:52] but the description on the extension's page sounds like that [13:54:12] "Notification emails are sent when a page is saved that has [[Assigned to::*]] and/or [[Carbon copy::*]] and [[Reminder at::*]] and/or [[Target date::*]] properties." [13:54:54] Ah, yes... [13:54:57] $wgHooks['ArticleSaveComplete'][] = .... [13:55:06] That's strange. Ideally there could be just a setting to disable those. [14:50:09] wow. I cannot query for my "Datum" property. Something is very wrong here :/ [14:51:56] There is a page for "Property:Datum" but Datum is not listed in "Special:Properties" [15:03:33] sven^: is it in Special:UnusedProperties, maybe? [15:04:58] Hi! I've just connected SMW to 4store, but no RDF Data appears there [15:05:08] Have I missed something obvious? [16:10:52] yaron: yes it is, but why? [16:11:16] I assume because it's not getting used? [16:11:48] if I go to Property:Datum there are like 600 pages listed [16:13:15] there are several properties in unused properties that are used [16:13:26] Email for example is used on like 250 pages [16:14:05] Ah - it sounds like a bug, then. [16:14:21] Maybe one that's specific to certain property types, like Date and Email. [16:14:46] I think it's related to properties having the same name as their datatypes [16:15:31] Oh... interesting. [16:15:42] no, wait [16:15:48] Email has type String [16:15:51] so that's not it [16:16:07] Well, maybe just properties that have the name of a datatype. [16:18:07] could the problem be that I use "datum" instead of "Datum" when setting the property? [16:18:24] maybe #ask is just a bit more forgiving at works anyways [16:18:34] I doubt it. [16:19:07] The data is being stored correctly, clearly. [17:19:00] so after renaming the Date property it works. [17:19:06] wow [19:00:28] sven^: cool, you found a bug - it would be great if you could file a bug report on it, on Bugzilla. [19:50:13] (PS1) Jeroen De Dauw: Update dependency names [extensions/Validator] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82889 [19:50:33] (CR) Jeroen De Dauw: [C: 2] Update dependency names [extensions/Validator] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/82889 (owner: Jeroen De Dauw) [21:15:01] (PS1) Mwjames: Nicified Special:Properties search form [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/83014 [22:03:40] (CR) Mwjames: [C: 2] Nicified Special:Properties search form [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/83014 (owner: Mwjames) [22:05:16] (Merged) jenkins-bot: Nicified Special:Properties search form [extensions/SemanticMediaWiki] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/83014 (owner: Mwjames)