[13:15:03] <CIA-92>	 raymond * r115668 /trunk/extensions/ (118 files in 117 dirs): Localisation updates from http://translatewiki.net.
[15:30:59] <drobbins>	 howdy
[15:32:34] <Saruman>	 hey
[15:40:07] <drobbins>	 hi
[15:40:19] <drobbins>	 Saruman: do you happen to know something about semantic mediawiki? :)
[16:24:59] <Saruman>	 drobbins: i do
[17:41:35] <drobbins>	 Saruman: cool
[17:41:40] <drobbins>	 Saruman: mind if I ask you a few questions?
[17:42:00] <drobbins>	 I am doing some stuff with semantic mediawiki at http://wiki.zenoss.org
[17:42:13] <drobbins>	 click on "ZenPack Directory" and you'll see the semantic stuff.
[17:42:47] <drobbins>	 I am trying to wrap my head around internal objects (vs. subobjects)
[17:47:39] <Nikerabbit>	 heh, then we are doing the same thing
[18:04:14] <Saruman>	 internal objects as in the SIO extension?
[18:10:31] <drobbins>	 yes
[18:11:32] <Saruman>	 ok
[18:11:43] <Saruman>	 I've used SIO before, but subobjects are new to me
[18:11:49] <Saruman>	 I'm reading about it as we speak
[18:13:07] <Sarum4n>	 re
[18:16:21] <Sarum4n>	 what did I miss
[18:17:52] <drobbins>	 hi
[18:18:08] <drobbins>	 well, trying to figure all this stuff out
[18:18:27] <drobbins>	 currenty trying to implement reviews. But I want to store reviews on user pages and then do an "ask" to display them on the zenpack page.
[18:18:49] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter plotting" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[18:22:04] <Sarum4n>	 so you want each review to be a set of properties, and retrieve those in a relevant place
[18:23:51] <drobbins>	 yes
[18:24:12] <drobbins>	 but properties on a subobject or internal object, since each review has a ZenPack(page), Rating(number), and Comment
[18:24:23] <drobbins>	 and users should be able to review multiple ZenPacks.
[18:24:28] <drobbins>	 right now I am not using SIO.
[18:25:00] <Saruman>	 Core problem you face is that #ask returns a (set of) page(s), not simply sets of properties
[18:25:29] <drobbins>	 wiki.zenoss.org/User:Daniel_Robbins
[18:25:41] <Saruman>	 so if you #ask for reviews on ZenPack Foo, then the main result is a number of user pages
[18:25:54] <drobbins>	 yes, and my properties are not being set as sub-objects/internal-objects at all. They are applied to the User page directly
[18:26:00] <Saruman>	 extracting the right review from each user page may require some trickery
[18:26:17] <drobbins>	 well for SIO, is each IO a page? I think it is.
[18:26:23] <Saruman>	 yes it is
[18:26:30] <drobbins>	 so maybe that is a way to go
[18:26:39] <Saruman>	 so if you used SIO, every review would be a separate virtual page
[18:26:44] <Saruman>	 that should work
[18:26:51] <drobbins>	 that would be fine.
[18:27:25] <Saruman>	 Subobjects are almost the same as SIO's, but I'm not totally clear on the last subtle differences
[18:27:39] <drobbins>	 what gets confusing is all the templates all over the place.
[18:27:46] <drobbins>	 it's easy to forget that they are just templates.
[18:27:51] <drobbins>	 (at least for me)
[18:28:09] <drobbins>	 once my brain wraps around all this, I am going to write some conceptual docs.
[18:28:28] <drobbins>	 the SMW docs are very good for someone who sort of understands everything already :)
[18:28:41] <drobbins>	 but better than most
[18:30:54] <drobbins>	 I am starting to understand SIO
[18:30:57] <drobbins>	 I should be able to get this working.
[18:31:07] <Saruman>	 I have an example for you, interested?
[18:31:17] <drobbins>	 sure
[18:31:24] <Saruman>	 http://www.saruman.biz/janwiki/index.php/Test
[18:31:39] <Saruman>	 in that wiki, I tried to create SIO's for tracks of an album
[18:31:47] <Saruman>	 the TEst page queries for that album
[18:31:57] <Saruman>	 only 1 page with SIOs created, though
[18:33:09] <Saruman>	 hmmmm, the "records" test broke
[18:33:34] <drobbins>	 I am thinking I need a new property of type Page called "Reviewer"
[18:33:49] <drobbins>	 this will link the internal object page to the user page.
[18:34:02] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[18:34:38] <Saruman>	 I can't follow that logic
[18:34:52] <Saruman>	 a property of type Page essentially models a relation between two pages
[18:35:10] <drobbins>	 yes, well the review needs to define who wrote the review.
[18:35:18] <drobbins>	 I need to create a relation between the review and the reviewer
[18:35:34] <Saruman>	 well the review is on the user page, right?
[18:35:39] <drobbins>	 yes
[18:35:46] <drobbins>	 but as a sub-object.
[18:35:56] <drobbins>	 do I need a reviewer property or no?
[18:35:59] <Saruman>	 so the first SIO for the review will be <userpagename>#1
[18:36:09] <Saruman>	 I don't think so
[18:36:20] <drobbins>	 ok
[18:36:38] <drobbins>	 question
[18:36:57] <drobbins>	 what if I am going to have different types of SIOs on user pages? Will that create problems?
[18:37:11] <drobbins>	 for example, reviews and then quotations (theoretical example)
[18:37:33] <drobbins>	 in the recipe example, say I want to have ingredients and feedback.
[18:37:35] <Saruman>	 should be no problem whatsoever
[18:37:38] <drobbins>	 ok
[18:37:41] <drobbins>	 and I can query for eacH?
[18:38:15] <Saruman>	 you're going to do something like {{#set_internal:review|score=9|text=this is vewwy good}}
[18:38:39] <Saruman>	 oh, add a prop for the ZenPack that's reviewed
[18:38:46] <drobbins>	 yep
[18:38:52] <Saruman>	 something like {{#set_internal:review|ZenPack=Foo|score=9|text=this is vewwy good}}
[18:39:49] <drobbins>	 ok
[18:39:56] <drobbins>	 and how might I query for all reviews then?
[18:40:10] <Saruman>	 just looking into that
[18:40:51] <Saruman>	 all reviews would simply be {{#ask: [[review::+]] }}
[18:41:35] <drobbins>	 what about reviews for a particular ZenPack (to be displayed on that ZenPack's page)
[18:42:08] <drobbins>	 {{#ask: [[review::+]] [[ZenPack={{FULLPAGENAME}]] }} ?
[18:42:08] <Saruman>	 on the ZenPack page, the query would be something like {{#ask: [[review::+]] [[ZenPack::Foo]]}}
[18:42:12] <Saruman>	 yep
[18:42:15] <drobbins>	 cool
[18:42:17] <drobbins>	 :)
[18:42:19] <drobbins>	 will try it.
[18:42:27] <Saruman>	 SMW usually is 8-D
[18:42:31] <drobbins>	 and "review" needs to be a property of type page?
[18:42:35] <drobbins>	 yes, SMW is nice.
[18:42:57] <gerrit-wm>	 New review: Mwjames; "The problem of the first draft data model has been resolved allowing to use the the first column con..." [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master); V: 1 C: 1;  - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[18:43:41] <Saruman>	 yah, and it's Property:review page defines the different subproperties
[18:43:42] <Saruman>	 see http://www.saruman.biz/jan/Property:Album
[18:44:24] <Saruman>	 each of the subproperties then also has it's own Property page, like Property:score
[18:46:01] <drobbins>	 oh, question.
[18:46:05] <Saruman>	 so construct the model for your reviews, define all subproperties, define the SIO property page, and then create reviews
[18:46:13] <drobbins>	 for my query, what if I want to get the user who reviewed it?
[18:46:30] <Saruman>	 well that'd be the page the review is located, right?
[18:46:30] <drobbins>	 already did properties
[18:46:34] <drobbins>	 yes
[18:46:43] <drobbins>	 but on the zenpack page, I would want to display the user, along with their review.
[18:46:55] <drobbins>	 user X gave it a 5, user Y gave it a 4, etc.
[18:47:22] <Saruman>	 no prob
[18:47:52] <Saruman>	 remember,  {{#ask: [[review::+]] [[ZenPack={{FULLPAGENAME}]] }} returns all subobjects that actually concern the ZenPack
[18:48:17] <drobbins>	 ok
[18:48:20] <Saruman>	 so the #ask returns a set of (virtual) pages, and all you have to do is to add the subproperties you want in your printout
[18:48:35] <Saruman>	 nicest to pipe these to a template which formats each review
[18:48:53] <drobbins>	 so it will give me the user page too?
[18:49:26] <Saruman>	 {{#ask: [[review::+]] [[ZenPack={{FULLPAGENAME}]] |?review=Reviewer|?score=Verdict|?text=Review}}
[18:49:56] <Saruman>	 yah, because the SIO is basically of type Page, so it contains the link to the page where the SIO was set
[18:51:47] <drobbins>	 good
[18:54:00] <drobbins>	 Saruman: I don't get the "reviewer" stuff you have there.
[18:54:12] <drobbins>	 I won't have a property called reviewer. Because I didn't define one or set it.
[18:55:22] <Saruman>	 if you hint at ?review=Reviewer, that property is the SIO itself, called review, but I want to set the column name to Reviewer
[18:56:29] <drobbins>	 ok
[18:57:47] <drobbins>	 hrm, not working.
[18:57:57] <drobbins>	 should it be ZenPack::{{FULLPAGENAME}}
[18:58:02] <drobbins>	 even that is not working.
[18:58:14] <Saruman>	 make it hardcoded ZenPack::Foo
[18:58:34] <Saruman>	 magic words can be problematic
[18:59:55] <Saruman>	 also, if you're to use SIO, you'll have to install it!
[18:59:56] <Saruman>	 http://wiki.zenoss.org/Special:Version
[19:00:15] <Saruman>	 oh excuse me
[19:00:17] <Saruman>	 overlooked it
[19:00:28] <drobbins>	 yes, installed
[19:00:29] <drobbins>	 so
[19:01:02] <drobbins>	 just asking for all reviews gives me links page to each page 'Daniel Robbins#1', etc.
[19:01:15] <drobbins>	 see bottom of wiki.zenoss.org/Spamtest
[19:01:57] <drobbins>	 that table is from my old query.... sorta works
[19:05:04] <drobbins>	 ok, I have a working "all reviews" query on that page.
[19:05:18] <drobbins>	 Just need to tweak it to see all reviews for a certain ZenPack
[19:05:30] <Saruman>	 I've got it
[19:05:36] <Saruman>	 allow me to edit SpamText
[19:06:15] <drobbins>	 got it
[19:06:18] <drobbins>	 reload it
[19:06:23] <drobbins>	 it's there.
[19:06:30] <Saruman>	 grrr wiki won't allow my edit
[19:07:03] <drobbins>	 why not?
[19:07:05] <drobbins>	 pasting a URL?
[19:08:01] <Saruman>	 no, edit conflict
[19:08:01] <drobbins>	 looks good
[19:08:03] <drobbins>	 ah
[19:08:03] <Saruman>	 save now workd
[19:08:15] <drobbins>	 only tweak now is that ZenPacks are in the ZenPack: namespace :)
[19:08:47] <Saruman>	 why?
[19:09:15] <Saruman>	 they could be in the main namespace and have category ZenPack attached to them
[19:09:26] <Saruman>	 SMW treats category as "class"
[19:09:34] <drobbins>	 I am also using Category:ZenPack
[19:09:46] <drobbins>	 the namespace choice was for a couple of reasons.
[19:09:54] <Saruman>	 ok
[19:10:13] <drobbins>	 first, everyone likes to add 'ZenPack' to the name of their ZenPack. it gets annoying. So now the URL is http://wiki.zenoss.org/ZenPack:OpenVZ
[19:10:16] <drobbins>	 which is nicer.
[19:10:40] <drobbins>	 second reason is that I can use CSS to style those pages differently if I want (and want to do this eventually)
[19:10:42] <Saruman>	 if you pipe the #ask result to a template that prints a row in the table, then you can use ParserFunctions to remove ZenPack: from the resulting page name
[19:11:23] <drobbins>	 making a mental note of that :)
[19:11:25] <Saruman>	 I can recommend the VAriables extension
[19:12:21] <drobbins>	 what does that do?
[19:12:35] <drobbins>	 (reviews working btw, see http://wiki.zenoss.org/ZenPack:OpenVZ)
[19:12:54] <Saruman>	 if in the template you use something like {{#vardefine:zenpackname|{{{2}}}}} and then perform parserfucntion wizardry on {{#var:zenpackname}} then you can eventually style your link [[{{{2}}}|{{#var:zenpackname}}]]
[19:13:16] <Saruman>	 although you may also create a single spell without intermediate saving in a #var
[19:13:33] <drobbins>	 ah ok
[19:13:43] <Saruman>	 ok, so Variables isn't indispensible for your current needs
[19:14:15] <drobbins>	 would I do that with __NOTITLE__ and then specify = {{#var:zenpackname}} =
[19:14:30] <drobbins>	 a nice little optimization.
[19:14:36] <drobbins>	 OK, gotta run. Thanks for your help, Saruman :)
[19:14:36] <Saruman>	 what's __NOTITLE__?
[19:14:39] <Saruman>	 np
[19:14:45] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF sparkline run/pass jshint compliance test" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20471
[19:14:46] <drobbins>	 extension to drop the title of the page.
[19:14:53] <Saruman>	 k!
[19:15:01] <drobbins>	 you put it in wikitext, title goes away on page save.
[19:15:07] <drobbins>	 bbl
[19:16:44] <gerrit-wm>	 New review: Mwjames; "nothing added just ensure jshint compliance, before SRF 1.8 release" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master); V: 1 C: 2;  - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20471
[19:16:45] <gerrit-wm>	 Change merged: Mwjames; [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20471
[21:04:49] <drobbins>	 I am getting the wrong reviews :(
[21:07:57] <drobbins>	 fixed :)
[21:12:37] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[21:17:22] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[21:21:29] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[21:36:14] <drobbins>	 having a weird problem.
[21:36:27] <drobbins>	 I am defining properties but I am not seeing them in the properties browser
[21:37:10] <drobbins>	 maybe it's because I need to tweak LocalSettings.php to enable properties in my non-default namespace?
[21:38:44] <drobbins>	 yep
[21:40:35] <drobbins>	 enabled, doing data repair
[22:30:02] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[23:11:03] <drobbins>	 ok, so I want to put a creation date on each review. Looks like each page only has a modification date property
[23:13:53] <gerrit-wm>	 New patchset: Mwjames; "SRF jqPlot scatter chart" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[23:20:55] <drobbins>	 wondering if I can use modification date
[23:20:57] <gerrit-wm>	 New review: Jeroen De Dauw; "Just in time to save me from the mad house :)" [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master); V: 1 C: 2;  - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[23:20:57] <gerrit-wm>	 Change merged: Jeroen De Dauw; [mediawiki/extensions/SemanticResultFormats] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/20029
[23:26:06] <drobbins>	 what I am thinking about is having the form insert a static "datetime.now()" when the review is added.