[00:16:35] If anyone has opinions on how roles should be structured on discord, please see and comment on https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Void/Discord, thanks [00:16:36] [ User:Void/Discord - Miraheze Meta ] - meta.miraheze.org [00:19:23] Voidwalker: i guess i dont exist? I have the puppet user role lol [00:19:58] oh, hmm, wasn't aware that was still in use [00:20:04] can update [00:22:02] I support proposal 2 [00:22:36] I support proposal 1 or 3 [00:23:04] I support proposal 2 also [00:26:41] I think we should make Voidwalker the owner in that case [00:26:45] We cannot have a situation where Stewards, in control of the platform from a moderation perspective, and empowered to ensure the Code of Conduct is upheld, cannot warn or moderate, as needed, a MediaWiki Engineer or Site Reliability Engineer where necessary. While it's not very likely, we have to allow for that very real possibility. Discord permissions' management is what it is. [00:26:56] 👍 to making Voidwalker the owner [00:27:01] I'd support that [00:27:09] Only because he's the board [00:27:16] that's fine [00:28:00] I've made an update, FYI [00:28:01] but even Stewards sorted above Site Reliability Engineers would have no access to SRE private channels and if a Steward ever gave themselves that access, via SRE*ACL, they would have that role group removed [00:28:51] I don't support stewards being above SRE [00:29:06] for the simple reason its just a power grab [00:29:54] ^ [00:29:56] ^ [00:29:59] I think NDKilla should just have remained owner and doing proposal 3, then all of this could have been avoided. But overall I support proposal 1 and proposal 3 together as I think that can work. [00:30:14] Proposal 2 [00:30:16] Not 1 [00:30:40] SRE have stand back, my proposals have been inacted which is stewards are the main moderators and SRE are to stand back [00:30:48] None of us have abused our position [00:30:53] ^ [00:36:21] Personally I don’t see Stewards moderating community venues a powergrab [00:36:33] But being sole moderators? [00:36:33] ^ :thistbh: [00:36:50] not sole moderators, Zppix [00:36:55] arguably is SRE demanding to keep control over community venues a powergrab? [00:36:55] SRE still can moderate [00:37:51] “While it's not very likely, we have to allow for that very real possibility. Discord permissions' management is what it is.” [00:38:04] Note, too, that Discord and IRC venues are subject to the Code of Conduct. [00:38:24] So are the wikis, phabricator, whats your point [00:38:47] This isn't a local wiki or Phabricator; SRE is in charge of Phabricator and I have no concerns there [00:39:01] This is a global community forum [00:39:24] #miraheze-sre is managed by SRE and again that is a local forum led by SRE [00:40:02] Ok, stewards can do what they want with the discord server, i don't care. I'll be IRC only from now on, and i know a few others will too. [00:40:22] The issue, imo, is that it seems all that is wanted to take perms from sre and give more to stewards [00:40:33] Not at all [00:40:53] I agree with Zppix and Paladox in the matter. And yes you basically are sole moderators dmehus. You just said so yourself. That you moderate the SRE, which makes you the absolute moderators on Discord. I don't agree with that one bit. I usually do agree Stewards have more power in community then SRE, which is fine, but you still will I don't think Stewards should have absolute control though. Moderating the SRE shouldn't be [00:40:53] Stewards, that should be CoC,.... but anyways I agree with paladox above. I'm not going to be going back to Discord anytime soon, at the rate it's going there now. [00:41:30] Its absolutely a power grab and will not be active in discord [00:46:11] I think the problem is better solved via community consensus rather than SRE deciding who can and can’t moderate Discord, if after all it is a community venue. Also SRE Judy throwing out that Stewards are power-grabbing is arguably not the best for Steward-SRE relations, it should just be put to the community and left that way [00:46:41] Doug threatned to use CoC to change the ownership [00:46:49] ^ [00:46:54] dictatorship tbh [00:47:45] I feel like what sre is allowed to do gets less and less each day... [00:48:48] Less and less how? I see notifications all the time. [00:49:05] Using the CoCC is indeed out of order in that case [00:49:36] CoCC? As in Code of Conduct Commissioner? [00:49:40] Zppix: exactly. [00:49:46] SRE’s demand is increasing and currently unmet. SRE doing less and being able to focus more on what it should be doing is good [00:49:54] darkmatterman450: yes [00:50:46] I’d be curious on what responsibilities SRE are losing that are so vital to the technical running of Miraheze? As they should be addresses [00:50:46] @JohnLewis I see. [00:50:46] I agree with JohnLewis [00:50:53] SRE shouldn't be focused on Moderating [00:51:15] which is why my proposal to NDKilla was Stewards take over moderating since they are who the community elect [00:51:20] and that SRE stand down [00:51:21] All I'm saying is that Stewards functionally oversee the community-adopted global policies. Code of Conduct Commission has no enforcement powers. It doesn't get involved in the day-to-day CoC problems [00:51:29] And any such dispute to the role of SRE should be raised with the management team as a priority to ensure SRE are best placed to do their job [00:51:48] Also, I don't see how @Doug was even threatening to overpower anything as far as I could see it. :/ [00:51:59] but if a MWE or SRE is out of line with respect to the CoC, it's not exclusively up to SRE to moderate or provide guidance to said MWE / SRE [00:52:01] in the dms [00:52:05] darkmatterman450 [00:52:30] @Paladox Oh. [00:53:23] JohnLewis: I agree they should focus on what is important, not moderating, but I don't think Stewards should have that absolute power either. I think more should be delegated elsewhere not everything to Stewards, it gives them to much power. Stewards are nearly unaccountable at this point. [00:53:36] Some of you guys may have done some questionable stuff, but even I've some questionable stuff as well, so we're all on the same boat here. [00:53:44] They don't have absolute power, Universal_Omega. [00:53:45] Wouldn't be better if there were volunteers specifically for Discord moderation? [00:53:59] (not linked to any other role) [00:54:02] dmehus: sure seems like it [00:54:03] Stewards are entirely and wholly accountable to the community [00:54:12] If a steward was completely rogue, an SRE could, in theory, remove their access via the back end if they had to [00:54:18] SRE are not in a position to moderate and control Stewards [00:54:40] Plus if you want to be technically the steward page doesnt say anything regarding their access off-wiki https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Stewards [00:54:41] [ Stewards - Miraheze Meta ] - meta.miraheze.org [00:54:46] but even in that case, they would take direction from the other stewards [00:54:51] That would be like if a king tried ruling all of our continents. Now, that would really be out of line. [00:55:15] Zppix, the CoC applies to all official channels, though, not just wikis [00:55:23] Yes they basically do. They're accountable to the community sure, how long does it take revocation process to undergo again? They could cause damage before they were revoked. It seems absolute to me. [00:55:32] Zppix does bring up a valid point, and that boils down to the core root of the problem ‘there’s roles on wikis, so they must apply elsewhere’ is wrong [00:55:39] dmehus: stewards dont enforce coc [00:55:41] Apologies for using words like dictatorship/powergrab. It got a little heated. Stewards can take ownership of the server, but i'll be IRC only as i feel the way things are currently are better that being group conctacts not related to SRE/steward/board. [00:55:43] Cocc doess [00:56:03] I feel like this is turning into a public debate between Stewards and many other users. [00:56:12] tbh i thought other people liked the idea of the discord-specific moderators before and i kind of liked that idea [00:56:30] yes [00:56:31] Zppix, not really, actually. CoCC is the final appeal and arbitration venue. Local actors, whether SRE or Stewards, should enforce the CoC before CoCC gets involved [00:56:39] Discord needs to be like IRC, non role specific ‘owners’ [00:56:50] true [00:57:09] as neither me or PuppyKun are GCs because of our ‘access’ [00:57:22] Hold it! Aren't the Stewards supposed to take pride with the CoCC (Code of Conduct Commissioners)? [00:57:24] honestly we should probably do away with the wiki groups, whether SRE or Steward [00:57:43] dmehus https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lomzbS4J [00:57:43] [ Snippet | IRCCloud ] - www.irccloud.com [00:58:23] Zppix, that's worded poorly, and leads to a lot of confusion actually. CoCC has had to refer complaints to Stewards that should've been referred to Stewards first [00:58:42] There was community consensus to drop CoCC as the sole arbiters of the CoC so that page is out of date [00:58:49] ^ [00:58:55] Don't you guys think this is turning into a public debate? [00:59:34] https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ewzU4Zke/IMG_0116.PNG [00:59:50] again, Zppix, that's out of date and needs to be updated [01:00:00] I've been meaning to update that [01:00:18] Just read it, and I see what you mean. But didn't it require an update? [01:00:21] stewards[at]miraheze.org or cvt[at]miraheze.org is where CoC issues should be reported first [01:00:34] then escalated to CoCC if steward resolution is not satisfactory [01:01:07] On wiki [01:01:19] Elsewhere it’s platform moderators [01:01:47] JohnLewis, fair enough, yeah [01:01:49] Which on discord, its oh wait, only stewards [01:01:52] Also, shouldn't the lock reasons be more specified? For example, instead of saying abuse of multiple accounts, I was more accustomed to seeing abusing multiple accounts as it makes more sense that way. I've been meaning to bring this up anyway. [01:02:54] well, Zppix, NDKilla's and paladox's changes, which we discussed on Discord, did put them in the lead on Discord. We could have a Moderator role, sure no issues with that, but that Moderator role should be sorted above Stewards and MediaWiki Engineers [01:02:57] that's my issue [01:03:27] We've agreed to move the sre private channels to irc only [01:03:42] paladox, I like that idea actually [01:04:00] It's more secure, too [01:04:00] I think all roles from Board Members could be moderators so there wouldn't be any problem of "power", I suppose [01:04:05] @dmehus Considering how you've been with the wikis for over a period of 8 months, you still take pride in what you do, even if you are a rookie Steward. [01:04:11] Consolidating private discussion areas is a pretty good idea [01:04:20] ^ :thistbh: [01:04:36] Was it something I said? [01:04:42] no [01:04:42] i recommend all others do it too [01:04:52] Oh. [01:04:57] no more private discussion spaces on the miraheze server apart from moderator [01:05:00] paladox, yeah, we should probably move #stewards-chat to private channels as well [01:05:18] Im taking the relay down until further notice [01:05:43] Wouldn't it make more sense for you guys to separate the private channels from the public channels? [01:06:28] we have [01:06:36] Zppix, just from #miraheze-cvt-private. We still should have the relay for #miraheze-cvt-feed and #miraheze-irc-relay and #miraheze-sre-relay, which are all public channels [01:06:47] dmehus: nope period [01:07:09] Zppix, what if we want those relays for public channels? [01:07:17] Who made you God? [01:07:32] It was agreed when i made the bots project i had full access [01:07:51] Those bots are something i provide for miraheze [01:08:02] I can turn them off and on as i please [01:08:05] Well, that's problematic. Some of us like those relays, and you shouldn't usurp the community's wishes with your MirahezeBots access. [01:08:33] I'm sure JohnLewis wouldn't agree with you saying things like: [01:08:33] ```It was agreed when i made the bots project i had full access [01:08:33] 17:07 Those bots are something i provide for miraheze [01:08:33] 17:08 I can turn them off and on as i please``` [01:08:57] I run MirahezeBot and such as a volunteer [01:09:03] They exist cause i made them exist [01:09:04] especially the part at `:08:` [01:09:15] You can't usurp the community's wishes like that, though [01:09:19] unilaterally [01:09:28] It's improper. [01:09:34] Miraheze doesnt control the project [01:10:10] No, but it's an improper exertion of your control over relays many find useful. [01:10:25] Let's discuss this matter later. I don't really have a problem with a volunteer project withdrawing, but I do have a problem with how fast we are all jumping to take particular actions because we disagree with what's been going on. [01:10:41] dmehus: it doesn't matter anymore. I totally support actions by Zppix. It's his bots it's his decision. You've turned this into a war between sysadmins and Stewards. And now I announce this publicly: come tomorrow I make a definitive decision whether or not I remain a sysadmin. The actions of Stewards (you) today make that much easier... I likely will decide resignation. I won't continue to be apart of Miraheze governed by [01:10:42] dictatorship. [01:10:43] ^ :thistbh: [01:11:31] Oh, my goodness, Universal_Omega. Please dial back the temperature here. [01:11:49] No [01:12:26] and how is unilateral withdrawal of the bot relays, without a discussion, not a dictatorship? [01:12:56] Because its a project that only exists cause i made it [01:13:17] I voluntarily provide the bots [01:13:21] I dont have to provide [01:13:34] You started it, yes, but MacFan4000, Reception123, RhinosF1, and Voidwalker all contribute to it [01:14:42] Can we all back down? No one person has made this into a ‘war’. A lot of people are involved and a lot of people are throwing around accusations, comments and turning it into an us v them debate. [01:15:10] dmehus: https://bots.miraheze.wiki/contribs read first line [01:15:10] [ 404 Not Found ] - bots.miraheze.wiki [01:15:15] Ugh [01:15:35] Thank you Voidwalker ! [01:15:39] https://mirahezebots.org/contribs [01:15:39] [ Contributions - MirahezeBot ] - mirahezebots.org [01:15:40] and for trying to resolve this :) [01:16:45] Miraheze is not governed by a dictatorship, that’s been a clear stance since day 1. I’m unsure how such a conclusion can be drawn - Stewards don’t govern Miraheze. SRE don’t govern Miraheze. The community do. [01:18:04] I honestly would prefer not to moderate at all; fact, I'm often so involved on-wiki that others (paladox or Reception123) have to handle Music Troll, etc., on IRC/Discord. All I'm saying is, the CoCC can't directly enforce the CoC, so there needs to be some sort of moderator group on Discord that is above Stewards / SRE. [01:18:24] I don't care who that moderator group is. If we want to have elections for Discord Moderator, fine by me. [01:18:29] No problem with that. [01:18:55] i think that's the best way forward is to have a discord moderator group [01:18:56] I’m sure Voidwalker will also verify this, but the board of Miraheze Limited would also make the decisions necessary to protect such values. They retain ultimate control of Miraheze and would fight tooth and nail to ensure the community remain the champions jere above everyone else [01:19:00] elected by people on discord [01:19:17] yeah ^ to the above [01:19:28] and also agreed to having the role above everyone else [01:19:51] and i support Voidwalker being made the owner. He's trustwrothy, active and would support the community. [01:19:54] * PuppyKun adds my proposal to void's page. [01:20:00] Let's do something like that then, have a Discord Moderator group. If we want to still have separate SRE / MWE / Steward / Interwiki Admin groups, that's all fine [01:20:26] I'd support that, paladox [01:20:28] Let's not do anything until we have community consensus to implement any changes [01:21:13] JohnLewis: The community elected the Stewards, sure, but last I checked sysadmins are members of the community and have opinions disregarded. Or it least seemingly so. Stewards hold no regard to sysadmins opinions it seems. Nor to the community after initial election, unless forced to by policy. [01:21:59] ^ [01:22:01] PuppyKun, I like that proposal, and I think it is something I will be moving forward with [01:22:24] Sysadmin are community members and can voice their opinions in the same way. Sysadmin don’t get special treatment because of their role however [01:22:45] I'm not saying they do JohnLewis [01:23:27] As a previous sre + steward recently turned just steward, I don't feel that 'Stewards hold no regard to sysadmin opinions' tbh and I'm sorry anyone here could possibly feel that way. [01:24:23] If you can link to an instance where a sysadmin had their opinion disregarded because they’re a sysadmin and not because there was no overarching community consensus/appropriate discussion, I and other stewards would definitely be interested in that [01:26:19] Absolutely, I'd hope to be able to look into any problem that is ongoing so that no one feels the need to walk away from the project. [01:27:09] ^ 👍 and :thistbh: [01:57:07] Hello Lakelimbo! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [02:06:23] Hi all, please see https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Void/Discord#Moving_forward. I am still going to accept further comments on this idea, but will be moving to an RFC with the proposal in that section tomorrow. [02:06:24] [ User:Void/Discord - Miraheze Meta ] - meta.miraheze.org [06:06:25] wtf happened [06:06:49] Alot [06:07:05] Discord related drama [06:53:34] Pretty much like some SRE was trying to coup @ discord lol — the one who makes the 'power transition' notice then refusing to transfer the power, that is what's happening at Myanmar. [06:56:15] revi: I didn't quite expect to wake up to a coup [06:56:42] I didn't expect this to evolve to coup-labeled situation when I saw the vo—id's initial proposal [06:57:47] but wait, if you can expect a coup, that is not a coup. [06:58:48] >but wait, if you can expect a coup, that is not a coup. [06:58:48] ^ insightful, good point. [06:59:48] * dmehus would still rather be on IRC than in Myanmar right now [07:00:18] We've had it in 1961 and 1980 anyway, so I know what is a coup for sure lol [07:00:41] yeah [07:01:16] How do you display `see https://revi.kr/freenode-revi before msg` next to your nick, revi? [07:01:18] [ Chat/IRC/Freenode - ReviNet ] - revi.kr [07:01:32] *always wondered what command controls that* [07:01:42] Realname setting on client [07:01:47] Freenode => edit connection => full name [07:01:53] (warning: requires reconnection) [07:01:55] oh, cool, thanks [07:03:38] Oh, heh, I misread that. You said "requires reconnection." I thought you said "requires connection" [07:24:11] dmehus : It shows in different places based on your irc client [07:24:18] However all 3 of us use the same client so idk that it matters [07:35:35] Naleksuh, oh, okay. Yeah, I don't know where it would display on HexChat. I know Voidwalker uses HexChat [07:35:44] Most seem to use IRCCloud here though [07:36:01] For HexChat it doesn't display directly, you have to click on the name and look at the popup [07:36:07] ah [07:36:11] interesting [07:36:34] HexChat is mainly text-only, so its just like " *always wondered what command controls that*" [07:36:35] I actually end up doing that on IRCCloud quite often anyway, mainly to look up a hostmask or use whois [07:36:43] oh [07:36:50] IRCcloud is a much more visual client, probably designed to appeal to people used to Discord etc [07:36:59] No embeds and emojis in HexChat? [07:37:08] Embeds no [07:37:12] ah [07:37:16] Emojis just show up as unicode [07:37:21] ah [07:37:40] Also you have to download and install HexChat because the world hadnt moved to web yet [07:37:43] so like `: - )` instead of `:-)` [07:37:48] oops [07:37:59] `:-)` instead of 🙂 [07:38:15] ah [07:38:36] Oh you meant regular typed emojis [07:38:45] I thought you meant whenever you copy and paste the 100 thing [07:39:04] well I meant any graphical ones [07:39:32] Yeah thats a good question [07:39:35] ..I should try [07:39:58] Hello Administrator_! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [07:41:05] dmehus : so what emojis were you thinking of? [07:50:18] Hi discord guys [07:50:20] we're back [07:54:12] Naleksuh: it's heated but it will work until actual discussion can occur [07:54:23] whats heated [07:54:59] This debate that caused it [08:00:03] * HeartsDo read the discussion, sigh, and return on school for thinking about this story [08:19:21] They chose to leave [08:24:36] !log removed zppix from matomo [11:17:34] Reception123: that doesn’t seem to have logged [11:17:55] paladox: yeah, I did it in -sre after, I'm too used to using this channel [11:18:09] Oh [11:37:24] Who's going to take Zppix's place though? [11:51:03] There's no requirement to have a certain set of users within SRE, so whoever wishes to volunteer themselves to be a member with the experience at any time they wish to [11:52:27] Oh, so what you're telling me is, that if I wanted to be one, I'd raise up my hand and say something? Considering how I've been around for a while and helping you guys out with reports of problems with persistent users, I wouldn't want to hat-collect. [11:52:50] You'd need technical experience [11:53:07] Oh. I see where you're coming from. [11:53:53] But anyone who has the right knowledge, experience and trust could [11:54:13] At least that's a positive in all of this. [11:55:41] One of the permissions that I don't have what it takes to be would be a steward, considering how I've acted on impulse multiple times, and I barely know about the projects. Plus, I don't think hat-collecting would be the way to do it. [12:07:24] Acting on impulse is definitely not something that is compatible with being a sysadmin either [12:07:44] Yeah, the opposite is also true. [12:08:34] @Reception123 I guess me and Zppix have something in common. We tend to act on impulse without even knowing what's happening in the background. [12:13:02] Reception123: RhinosF1|NotHere: around? I'm not able to unclose my wiki. [12:15:10] I untick closed and submit but it is getting re-ticked automatically. [12:16:03] JohnLewis: ^ could you maybe try to unclose it? [12:16:14] CptViraj: what's the URL? [12:16:27] I was going to ask the same thing. [12:16:42] https://cptviraj.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:ManageWiki [12:16:43] [ Permission error - CptVirajWiki ] - cptviraj.miraheze.org [12:25:46] CptViraj: should be open now :) [13:54:16] ye, thanks JohnLewis and Reception123 :) [13:59:32] ok, now I'm available on IRC as well. : D [14:11:51] Hi Lake [15:59:29] You would be wrong, ive been debating on resigning for months, this was the i cing on the cake [18:02:01] Hello Guest74! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [18:02:21] Reception123 [18:02:24] it is time to sing [18:02:29] .op [18:02:29] Attempting to OP... [18:02:39] no dmehus [18:03:22] jess: ^ [18:03:27] dmehus out here doing a kickban speedrun [18:03:55] Naleksuh, heh I normally music Music Troll [18:04:12] dmehus: see your DM please :) [18:04:14] s/normally/normally miss [18:04:15] dmehus meant to say: Naleksuh, heh I normally miss music Music Troll [18:16:16] Hello Gaydar! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [18:16:25] BEEP BEEP BEEP GAY DECTEDED [18:16:26] BEEP BEEP BEEP GAY DECTEDED [21:30:02] t [21:30:08] e [21:33:39] s [21:33:47] t [21:54:18] @alistair3149 now the relay is fixed, I believe can you send your message again, so someone can see on IRC? :) [21:55:42] Testing, testing, 1 2. [21:55:53] Yep, it works here. [21:57:32] Yay, it works. [22:07:11] ping [22:07:25] pong [22:07:26] pong [22:07:40] @Doug We both jinxed it. [22:18:02] heh, yep [22:18:38] @Lake thanks for the notification I'll do it again. [22:18:40] Hi I'm the author of the Citizen skin. May I request an update to the skin? The version on Miraheze was many commits behind and the previous dependabot PRs were not merged. Is there anything I can help on the process? [22:19:33] It was already updated. [22:19:37] This was now done by @paladox earlier today. [22:19:47] Universal_Omega, jinx 😛