[00:01:16] RECOVERY - cp3 Disk Space on cp3 is OK: DISK OK - free space: / 4104 MB (17% inode=93%); [00:04:18] RECOVERY - cp8 Disk Space on cp8 is OK: DISK OK - free space: / 3965 MB (20% inode=93%); [01:45:10] [02miraheze/services] 07MirahezeSSLBot pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jftzg [01:45:11] [02miraheze/services] 07MirahezeSSLBot 03c76467c - BOT: Updating services config for wikis [01:56:25] Hello pandakekok9! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [01:58:15] Hi, is it possible to reset my password without using my email? I can confirm that I am that account using my Wikimedia account. I just need the email of my Miraheze account to be changed to match with my Wikimedia account, since I deleted the email account. Thanks [01:58:52] The account in question btw is Pokéfan95 [01:59:22] you can't access your mail at Miraheze? [02:00:20] or to your account and switch to the mail? pandakekok9 [02:00:34] I can't [02:00:42] The mail at Miraheze is deleted long time ago [02:00:54] And I forgot my password there [02:01:16] oh [02:02:08] I can confirm at my Wikimedia Commons userpage here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pandakekok9 [02:02:08] [ User:Pandakekok9 - Wikimedia Commons ] - commons.wikimedia.org [02:05:32] pandakekok9: send an email to tech@miraheze.org explaining their problem and confirming that they're the same person. In addition to giving some facts that might help [02:05:55] Ok, thanks [02:06:02] no problem [02:47:11] [02mw-config] 07MusikAnimal opened pull request 03#3039: Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki - 13https://git.io/JftgQ [06:36:02] [02mw-config] 07Reception123 commented on pull request 03#3039: Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki - 13https://git.io/JftVi [06:36:03] [02mw-config] 07Reception123 closed pull request 03#3039: Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki - 13https://git.io/JftgQ [09:21:37] Hello GlorygirlBi! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [12:47:15] !log reception@jobrunner1:~$ sudo -u www-data php /srv/mediawiki/w/maintenance/rebuildall.php --wiki testwiki [12:47:19] Logged the message at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:Server_admin_log, Master [12:49:31] ^ requested, wonderfuk on the brokenredirects report [12:50:15] [02miraheze/services] 07MirahezeSSLBot pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jftya [12:50:17] [02miraheze/services] 07MirahezeSSLBot 03296f1b7 - BOT: Updating services config for wikis [12:51:09] Reception123: run https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:UpdateSpecialPages.php once it’s done [12:51:09] [ Manual:updateSpecialPages.php - MediaWiki ] - www.mediawiki.org [12:51:42] RhinosF1: k [12:59:27] !log reception@jobrunner1:~$ sudo -u www-data php /srv/mediawiki/w/maintenance/updateSpecialPages.php --wiki testwiki [12:59:30] Logged the message at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:Server_admin_log, Master [13:09:53] y0. Where is the place to create a ticket on a problem. I got the MatomoAnalytics to work with one wiki with kind help from lw1_at @ #matomo. Removing 3 + 1 + 3 lines from 'MatomoAnalytics/includes/MatomoAnalyticsHooks.php' resulted in the Wiki being connected to the Matomo instance. I have made notes on which 7 lines needed to be removed for it to start working. As far as I know the server environment should be just fine. [13:14:39] jukebohi: Hi, https://phabricator.miraheze.org is where we track bugs :) [13:14:40] [ Main Page ] - phabricator.miraheze.org [13:15:36] He argued that those lines were making invalid JavaScript and if it ain't valid it don't run. We never got to the bottom of why certain ... uhh ... parameter should appear inside of an if() and did not appear [13:15:42] Ok cheers thanks JohnLewis [13:18:17] Uhh... login with GitHub did not work [13:18:34] Should I create an account on the wiki and use that to login? [13:20:04] Do you already have an account with a miraheze wiki jukebohi? [13:20:12] sariomobile: nope [13:20:37] jukebohi what is the error you get with github? [13:21:45] paladox: it said something about login to this particular external service may have been restricted lately [13:21:51] oh [13:22:05] I'm going to try to login to phab with wiki credentials [13:23:24] jukebohi yeh, your going to have to use wiki credentials. [13:23:26] ok, I'm in. Now I try to write a good ticket [13:33:16] * hispano76 greetings [13:37:11] [02miraheze/mw-config] 07Reception123 pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/JftSw [13:37:13] [02miraheze/mw-config] 07Reception123 0391da706 - add StructuredDiscussions in brackets to flow name per T5472, so there is no confusion [13:38:45] Ok. Wrote the ticket, provided link to refernce snapshot of the code (from which 7 lines needed to be removed) and the line numbers. I hope I wrote a good ticket. [13:38:49] https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T5476 [13:38:50] [ ⚓ T5476 Needed to remove 7 lines from MatomoAnalytics/includes/MatomoAnalyticsHooks.php to get the extension to work with Mediawiki 1.34.1 ] - phabricator.miraheze.org [13:52:39] jukebohi what js error did you get? [13:56:00] Good morning [13:57:23] jukebohi were you running php 7.0? [14:00:16] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft9t [14:00:18] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox 0305d2780 - Remove duplicate $cookieDisable configs [14:02:42] paladox: lemme check. Debian10 has PHP 7.3, but not sure about 9 [14:02:55] yeh, debian stretch uses php 7.0 [14:03:11] i'm not sure if this is a php issue, JohnLewis may know? [14:03:20] paladox: PHP 7.3.14-1~deb10u1 [14:03:31] Not that I'm aware of, HEREDOC is definitely not 7 specific [14:03:38] hmm [14:03:52] how did you set MatomoAnalyticsDisableCookie? [14:04:54] paladox: I have not set it. I didn't see any instructions to do so. I remember that the kind feller told that evaluating that _FOR SOME REASON_ leads to if ( ), which is like illegal in JavaScript [14:05:09] hmm [14:05:13] then it [14:05:29] doesn't it have a default value? [14:05:45] yeh [14:05:51] default value of false [14:07:07] ohh [14:07:10] i can reproduce [14:07:22] false breaks it [14:07:44] nice, cheers for helping me out paladox [14:09:49] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03paladox-patch-5 [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft9R [14:09:51] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox 03d79c8de - Fix bug when setting value to false [14:09:52] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox created branch 03paladox-patch-5 - 13https://git.io/fN4LT [14:09:54] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox opened pull request 03#23: Fix bug when setting value to false - 13https://git.io/Jft90 [14:11:52] https://meta.miraheze.org/m/4Hn [14:11:53] [ Meta:Requests for permissions - Miraheze Meta ] - meta.miraheze.org [14:11:57] FYI ^ [14:12:05] paladox: or use (string) [14:12:21] oh [14:12:35] JohnLewis well we do that with $globalId = (string)$config->get( 'MatomoAnalyticsGlobalID' ); [14:12:40] but that still breaks with false [14:13:40] int then? [14:14:18] HEREDOC is awful to work with in terms of conditionals [14:17:12] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox synchronize pull request 03#23: Fix bug when setting value to false - 13https://git.io/Jft90 [14:17:14] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03paladox-patch-5 [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft96 [14:17:15] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox 037146df3 - Update MatomoAnalyticsHooks.php [14:17:16] JohnLewis look good to you ^? [14:17:42] it looks fine, but whether it works is another [14:20:11] seems to work [14:20:21] if ( 0 ) { [14:20:21] _paq.push(['disableCookies']); [14:20:21] } [14:22:50] Can anyone see why https://publictestwiki.com/wiki/Special:DoubleRedirects is listing user:RhinosF1 there? [14:22:51] [ Double redirects - TestWiki ] - publictestwiki.com [14:23:09] Reception123: both scripts ran, correct? [14:24:37] well actually JohnLewis for globalId if it's 0 the if statement will most definitely not work [14:24:51] paladox: hm? [14:25:16] JohnLewis well if someones globalId is 0, and they set it. In javscript the if statement will make it a false [14:25:37] Unless Matomo follows a really really strange system, all IDs should be >= 1 [14:25:45] oh [14:27:08] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox synchronize pull request 03#23: Fix bug when setting value to false - 13https://git.io/Jft90 [14:27:10] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03paladox-patch-5 [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft99 [14:27:11] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox 0315d8753 - Update MatomoAnalyticsHooks.php [14:27:17] "Storing 0 is not a recommended practice, by the way." straight from MySQLdocs, so if something supports it, I'm tempted not to support them [14:27:57] i'm merging [14:28:23] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox edited pull request 03#23: Fix bug when setting value to false - 13https://git.io/Jft90 [14:28:32] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox closed pull request 03#23: Fix bug when setting value to false - 13https://git.io/Jft90 [14:28:34] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft9Q [14:28:35] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox 03d1ab29f - Fix bug when setting value to false (#23) Bug: T5476 [14:28:37] [02MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox deleted branch 03paladox-patch-5 - 13https://git.io/fN4LT [14:28:38] [02miraheze/MatomoAnalytics] 07paladox deleted branch 03paladox-patch-5 [14:29:14] jukebohi should be fixed now ^ [14:29:50] [02miraheze/mediawiki] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03REL1_34 [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jft95 [14:29:52] [02miraheze/mediawiki] 07paladox 030697ba3 - Update MatomoAnalytics [14:30:09] AmandaCath: fyi https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T5105#106728 [14:30:11] [ ⚓ T5105 Investigate and Implement basic Machine Learning concepts for automatic wiki creation ] - phabricator.miraheze.org [14:30:52] Someone evading a global lock in 90% of cases would not be allowed to create wikis if caught [14:31:14] paladox: fixed as in I can git clone the code onto a Mediawiki and it should run with no modifications? I have a test wiki set up, I'll just verify the backup before tinkering around [14:31:28] jukebohi yup, it should. [14:32:51] RhinosF1: but why would people be globally [14:32:58] Locked if they aren't community banned [14:33:07] Unless they have a bad username [14:33:33] AmandaCath: Vandal-Only accounts [14:33:55] Harrasment [14:33:58] CPP [14:34:03] ToU [14:34:12] Shall I expand? [14:34:27] So someone who is putting junk on multiple other wikis isn't allowed to instead decide to put their junk on their own wiki? [14:35:37] AmandaCath: circumstantial [14:35:45] Depends on what junk is [14:36:12] Someone who harasses users but isn’t banned per se would not be allowed an unlocked account [14:36:44] Maybe I'm just biased because on most Canadian websites that are administered by Canadians you'll never hear about anybody being banned [14:37:06] Basically we just say "if you want to make a mess, do it somewhere else where we won't see it" [14:38:40] as I said on the task I think the issue of socks of banned users is far too complex for an initial AI test [14:38:49] it's a very specific case [14:39:02] If they kept to their own private wiki, we might never know. Depends where and what they do. [14:39:45] well main user accounts that are blocked or banned can't request wikis anyway by definition, and for an AI to use CheckUser and investigate is far too complex and prone to false positives [14:40:03] so the issue that should be looked into now is first of all setting up the service itself [14:40:33] But merely being blocked on Meta (or any other wiki for that matter) doesn't prohibit one from running their own site? [14:40:40] Only if they are community banned [14:41:15] PROBLEM - jobrunner1 Puppet on jobrunner1 is CRITICAL: CRITICAL: Puppet has 1 failures. Last run 4 minutes ago with 1 failures. Failed resources (up to 3 shown): Exec[git_pull_MediaWiki core] [14:42:02] AmandaCath: they can’t request a wiki though. They could have one if they showed enough trust possibly. [14:42:16] A lot of this is very circumstantial [14:42:31] And requires context to give a definitive answer [14:43:06] Like I said, I probably just have a bias because Canadians tend to be very lenient with this sort of stuff [14:43:23] But I know that the EU (and now the UK separately) tend to be much stricter [14:44:09] RECOVERY - jobrunner1 Puppet on jobrunner1 is OK: OK: Puppet is currently enabled, last run 2 minutes ago with 0 failures [14:44:16] AmandaCath: well the way I see it if someone is blocked on Meta for local disruption they could technically request a wiki by emailing us [14:44:30] but being blocked prevents someone from using "requestwiki" afaik, so the normal process would not occur anyway [14:44:44] What reception said, unless the block was due to poor requests [14:44:46] therefore the AI would have nothing to do with that [14:45:02] but yeah that's more of a human thing too, it also depends on what the block was for [14:45:12] obviously if the user is community banned or ToU banned it's out of the question [14:45:13] Give examples of socks who you think could create a wiki and we can expand more in PM or something [14:45:24] or a globally locked user would also be denied that right [14:45:43] Reception123: ToU locked != banned in all cases. I can think of one where it wouldn’t apply [14:45:50] As far as I know we only have two globally banned users? [14:45:58] Unless I'm missing something [14:46:14] AmandaCath: well yes but there's many other locks for LTA or vandalism, etc. [14:46:35] and since they are lock on all the farm they would no longer be allowed to request a wiki unless they appealed their lock [14:47:00] The ability to request a wiki without an unblock on the account itself only applies to someone locally blocked on Meta [14:47:27] I mean, I see where you are coming from, but I guess it's just a difference of the "norms" [14:47:54] Like I said, Canadians don't ban people from virtually anything except in the most grave or serious circumstances [14:48:08] We just say "go do that nonsense somewhere else" [14:48:30] well we say that and when they don't listen and continue to violate our policies the only way from preventing the vandalism is denying their access to the wiki in question [14:49:03] AmandaCath: 4 banned users. 2 ToU, 2 Community [14:49:04] Well, in our cases "somewhere else" can often be on the same service but just out of sight of those who are complaining about it [14:49:39] AmandaCath: well yes, that's why I'm saying someone blocked locally on Meta could probably request a wiki separately [14:50:18] But Miraheze is a community farm, it has a common login so a user who goes on rampages on wikis to vandalize them shouldn't be able to then just go to their own private wiki and do what they want [14:50:24] (at least that is my opinion) [14:51:32] I understand and respect that opinion, but we would in fact do just that (take someone who is vandalizing and tell them to do it in a specific location) [14:51:52] It's why you'll often see "graffiti walls" in and around many cities [14:52:39] Vandals don’t always listen [14:52:43] well most vandals here wouldn't necessarily respect that, they don't want to vandalize alone on their own wiki they want people to see so they go to popular areas [14:52:50] ^ [14:52:55] I think its important to note someone who vandalises on multiple wikis and has been blocked many times locally, is extremely unlikely to be a positive contributor in any regard, even if they were told to do it 'in this specific location', with negative intentions, it's unlikely they'll respond positively [14:52:59] I doubt if we told a vandal "hey make your own wiki and do it there" they would listen [14:53:13] JohnLewis: Thank you [14:53:24] And what John said, global locks aren't taken lightly [14:53:29] Meh, guess it depends on the person [14:53:52] well if a person didn't have negative intentions they wouldn't vandalize multiple wikis [14:53:53] AmandaCath: I did ask for example cases [14:54:19] but yeah Rhinos is right having some examples would help since this is very hypothetical and personally I haven't seen a vandal with good intentions [14:54:44] Using the graffiti example, the policy of "spray paint your tags on this wall instead of on public buildings" seems to have worked fairly well [14:55:08] It doesn’t on wikis [14:55:35] To get a global lock, you’ve done 90% of the time done bad. [14:55:44] It would be nice if it did work that way on wikis... [14:56:03] That’s the vandals fault, they’d be locally blocked if it did. [14:57:10] it would be nice yes, but your graffiti example doesn't work because that will still eventually be seen by someone [14:57:24] a vandal has no interest in going on their own wiki and creating a mess with no one to see [14:57:36] wiki vandals usually crave attention so they want people to see and they want to ruin projects [14:57:52] ^ [14:58:06] Yes, but if someone doesn't like seeing graffiti, don't go by the graffiti wall. Most people who live in areas where they exist know where they are [14:59:16] And if someone complains about it, they'd be told "it's where it is supposed to be and it is not disrupting public infrastructure, so we don't do anything about it" [14:59:35] This conversation isn’t helping. Either provide examples or drop it. [14:59:38] well if you find one case of that example working on wiki definitely let me know, it would be intriguing [15:00:15] (One of my best friends is a police officer - they deal with this all the time) [15:00:29] But I agree we're kind of going around in circles here [15:00:47] yeah [15:21:38] paladox: I tested on the testing wiki. MatomoAnalytics works out-of-the-box so you singlehandedly fixed the issue. Cheers! [15:21:48] great! [15:23:15] Now I need a way to add an iFrame to Mediawiki, so I can offer users the opt-out button. [15:34:10] Coz I don't want to do unethical shit [15:44:53] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 synchronize pull request 03#3029: [NOT APPROVE] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [15:46:38] Reception123: in -tech asking about https://publictestwiki.com/wiki/Special:DoubleRedirects [15:46:39] [ Double redirects - TestWiki ] - publictestwiki.com [15:49:43] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 synchronize pull request 03#3029: [NOT APPROVE] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [15:49:54] .seen Voidwalker [15:49:55] RhinosF1: I last saw Voidwalker in here 6 days, 19 hours ago, saying: what's up with -feed? [15:51:10] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 synchronize pull request 03#3029: [NOT APPROVE] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [15:53:42] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 synchronize pull request 03#3029: [NOT APPROVE] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [15:55:38] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 commented on pull request 03#3029: [NOT APPROVE] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/Jft7U [15:56:29] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 edited pull request 03#3029: [NEEDS REVISION] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [15:57:20] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 edited a comment on pull request 03#3029: [NEEDS REVISION] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/Jft7U [16:09:13] thats odd it seems like comments are not appearing from the commentstreams extension [16:09:43] @icanttellyou sorry for that, the settings are being added now [16:09:55] yea i know [16:35:24] what problems can happen with commentstreams and mobilefrontend? [16:53:42] @icanttellyou We're not sure but one of them probably wouldn't work probably [16:58:49] [02mw-config] 07MusikAnimal opened pull request 03#3040: Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki - 13https://git.io/JftdY [17:00:00] [02mw-config] 07paladox closed pull request 03#3040: Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki - 13https://git.io/JftdY [17:00:02] [02miraheze/mw-config] 07paladox pushed 031 commit to 03master [+0/-0/±1] 13https://git.io/Jftds [17:00:03] [02miraheze/mw-config] 07MusikAnimal 036f245cf - Make CodeMirror on by default for solarawiki (#3040) [17:01:14] thanks! this is what I was trying to do with https://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/pull/3039, btw [17:01:44] musikanimal: oh sorry, I thought you were trying to enable it [17:01:55] :) [17:01:57] since that was what you tried to do the first time :) [17:02:29] yeah, the wg config variable and the user preference both are called 'usecodemirror', so I just got confused [17:04:20] yeah, a coincidence with our own setup [17:10:34] maybe commentstreams does not work due to mobilefrontend [17:12:01] Maybe because of the visibility that's left on the mobile [17:12:12] ?* [17:12:48] Although I got a good look at a wiki that used both extensions [17:30:55] PROBLEM - cp3 Disk Space on cp3 is WARNING: DISK WARNING - free space: / 2619 MB (10% inode=93%); [17:38:34] PROBLEM - cp8 Current Load on cp8 is WARNING: WARNING - load average: 0.55, 1.93, 1.57 [17:41:34] RECOVERY - cp8 Current Load on cp8 is OK: OK - load average: 0.85, 1.44, 1.44 [18:31:07] Reception123: that's an interesting proposal for CVT [18:31:35] Although why would global rollbackers need to have revision delete and page delete rights? [18:31:38] AmandaCath: yeah, it was discussed and there's just not enough Stewards [18:31:38] AmandaCath: It’s a big overhaul. [18:31:44] we need someone to be able to help [18:31:57] AmandaCath: global rollback is a bit messy, you are free to add proposals to that one [18:31:58] Shouldn't global rollback simply be global rollback and nothing else? [18:32:24] AmandaCath: well the idea is they should still be able to cleanup spam for example vandals who create spam pages [18:32:31] I said I’d rather it be global sysop [18:33:05] But we should leave actual admin tasks to the local admins... unless there aren't any for whatever reason [18:33:33] For me global sysop is too close to group 1 [18:33:56] AmandaCath: many times they're not always active and users don't want to see vandalism and spam on their wiki [18:34:10] You’ll see tommorow Reception123 [18:34:18] Group 1 is up from CVT [18:34:25] Group 2 is below [18:34:30] !log ban req.http.Host == static.miraheze.org && req.url ~ "^/dreamversewiki" - cp8 [18:34:34] Logged the message at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:Server_admin_log, Master [18:34:37] CVT eventually will probably not exisy [18:34:40] Exist [18:35:22] See, that's why we should have a global group to do rollback/revert globally, but not actual deletion/blocking unless there aren't any active local admins [18:35:44] Essentially, the 2 current CVT members will be given the option to chose which right they want now [18:36:05] Of course, if the account gets locked, local blocks are redundant and unnecessary [18:36:05] AmandaCath: my thought is their job is to act where no one locally is able to. [18:36:10] Yep [18:36:20] So need for GS to act [18:36:31] RhinosF1: well the proposal implies we'd go to group 1 [18:36:36] Second would be a new group [18:37:06] Yeah, I know. We should give the option [18:37:17] As it’s a different scope [18:37:46] Not sure why the bit about opt-in/opt-out needs a !vote... that should go without saying that a wiki with active admins should be able to opt-out [18:38:06] We shouldn't be forcing global groups over local right holders [18:38:20] Well then you can support the proposal [18:38:40] ^ [18:38:40] But as I said Miraheze is a community wiki farm [18:39:08] And someone needs to uphold the global policies [18:39:34] That's why the group exists and should exist [18:40:12] But if a local admin/community/whatever exists, they should not have to be forced to allow a global group to act in their place [18:40:15] !log redis-cli -a xxx --scan --pattern *dreamversewiki* | xargs redis-cli -a xxx del - rdb2 [18:40:16] Reception123: my point earlier was global rollback != the rights you're proposing for the group [18:40:21] Logged the message at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:Server_admin_log, Master [18:40:25] ^ [18:40:28] JohnLewis: exactly [18:40:53] Global rollback should simply be the "rollback" and "edit" rights globally, and nothing else l [18:41:07] Other than housekeeping stuff like autopatrol etc [18:44:56] I would personally envision something like the WMF layout, where the global sysop group is only enabled on wikis that have not opted-out, and the stewards, while enabled globally, are prohibited by policy from using their global rights if they do not also have local rights, except in an emergency [18:45:08] JohnLewis: in that case I'd probably change the current global rollback to global sysop and find another name for Group 1 (former CVT) [18:45:34] please [18:45:35] Though for me it should still include something that implies they still help fight vandalism as a secondary role [18:46:00] Community Support Team [18:46:34] That would be the global sysop/CVT/whatever [18:46:43] Well my issue with that is while it is meant to support the community mainly, there's still an anti vandalism and enforcing policy role that isn't really found in CST [18:46:59] That individual wikis can opt-out of if they choose [18:47:32] Either that or we get rid of global rollback and name group 1 global sysop, since "sysops" are supposed to help communities and enforce policies [18:47:53] Or make global rollback strictly rollback and edit nothing else [18:48:01] That would make sense, since rollback is part of the sysop package anyway [18:48:31] Although global sysop shouldn't have centralauth and interwiki userrights access though [18:48:37] That should be steward-only [18:48:53] Disagree [18:49:02] Stewards are not enough [18:49:20] CVT already has that and it's necessary to stop vandalism [18:49:44] With only two active Stewards it's not always easy to urgently get ahold of them to lock an abusive user [18:49:58] Perhaps we need to simply elect more stewards instead of trying to work around them [18:50:28] Well Stewards have a very large responsibility, need to sign an NDA, etc. and there aren't many users that are that dedicated [18:50:41] This needs a proper consultation period first [18:50:59] We can’t go all in with RfC mad. [18:51:06] Wait, stewards have to sign an NDA now? [18:51:11] Yes [18:51:13] RhinosF1: yeah, though we don't want to replace the RfC with an outside consultation [18:51:17] Is that new with the incorporation? [18:51:21] AmandaCath: yes [18:51:23] AmandaCath: yes, stewards and sysadmins since they have access to private information [18:51:30] Anyone with access to PII must [18:51:32] you can't be any of the two if you haven't signed an NDA first [18:51:58] + CU/OS any wiki, just never appointed [18:52:14] Reception123: e.g. pre RfC consultation [18:52:27] RhinosF1: well yes, but it shouldn't take away the RfC discussion [18:53:01] If someone is only being disruptive on 1 or 2 wikis, I'd say that's not an urgent matter for global lock [18:53:04] No it doesn’t [18:53:05] I'll think about it more but the main point is the way I see it group 1 has 1) a responsibility to help communities and support them and 2) to fight vandalism [18:53:08] Anyway bbl [18:53:14] Local blocks should take care of that [18:53:24] AmandaCath: well then they'll hop on to new wikis [18:53:40] anyway, the point of this RfC isn't to downgrade CVT, it's to "upgrade" it [18:53:52] Global locks IMHO should be reserved for cross-wiki vandalbots, spambots, or humans vandalizing at bot speeds [18:54:02] Across multiple wikis [18:54:03] The community already voted to allow CVT to have those rights [18:54:29] AmandaCath: well yes, but if a user vandalizes multiple wikis they are applied to prevent them from migrating to others [18:54:44] So keep CVT as it is, and then create a new global sysop group that has everything except those rights [18:54:48] the "speed" doesn't matter [18:55:12] AmandaCath: that would be kind of pointless, the idea of the new group is to have another group help Stewards with the workload [18:55:29] because as I said being a Steward requires a lot of time, motivation, etc. and there's not many who have that right now [18:55:40] as usual, Miraheze doesn't have nearly enough volunteers for how many wikis we have [18:55:51] Both global staff and sysadmin wise [18:56:08] Well, too bad Wikipedia doesn't think we are notable enough for an article :P [18:56:18] If we had an article surely we would attract more users [18:56:23] yeah for sure [18:56:28] though until a news site writes about it that's not happening [18:56:51] Recruiting/being notable is something we've had difficulties with [18:58:54] I mean, CVT has all of the global sysop rights + centralauth, so if the issue is steward workload, maybe we need to expand the number of CVT members [18:59:32] Creating new user groups doesn't change the fact that we don't have enough people to begin with [19:00:05] AmandaCath: well the scope of CVT is limiting, that's what the RfC is about [19:00:12] currently CVT should technically only deal with clear vandalism and spam [19:00:25] and the user group wouldn't be "new" exactly it would just expand the scope of the current one [19:01:11] No global group member should do anything more besides nuke clear vandalism and spam from wikis without active admins [19:01:25] Unless they also hold local rights [19:01:50] Or there is an emergency (compromised/rouge accounts, etc) [19:03:08] strictly speaking, the last point would be out of scope for the current CVT group [19:04:11] Well, if there is a compromised/rouge account and no stewards are active, I would think that would be a good reason for non-stewards to have centralauth rights [19:05:24] The current CVT is basically there to stop ongoing vandalism when Stewards are not there [19:05:49] And that's what they should continue to do [19:05:50] And as there are only two active Stewards, the group definitely has its purpose [19:05:57] Albeit with more members [19:07:20] "more members" is our biggest issue. [19:07:29] We don't have "more members" realistically [19:08:02] But adding more rights to the group won't change that [19:12:04] What we essentially need is some sort of Small Wiki Monitoring Team like the WMF has [19:12:16] Extending the scope means more people can do more things [19:13:02] But we have to be careful not to cross the line into "interference with local operations" [19:13:20] Which is why I support leaving everything as it is but expanding membership [19:13:26] The scope would become essentially the same as Stewards (bar some) [19:13:33] Which already can't interfere [19:13:35] It wouldn't be interference, it would be used when local staff is inactive or not there [19:13:51] If there's active admins no one would interfere [19:14:38] I don't think that's currently explicitly written in policy, though? [19:15:02] And that's the reason why it should go without saying that wikis with active admins can opt-out [19:15:52] JohnLewis: I'm assuming the "bar some" you refer to is CU/OS rights? [19:16:02] Yes, and rights management [19:16:20] "Stewards will work with communities" implies that they won't "interfere" [19:17:01] Perhaps, one of the reasons is that not all users will know English or x language and would prefer to monitor their native language wikis. (as would be my case with Spanish) [19:17:25] AmandaCath: global policy dictates that CVT/Stewards can act as a local sysop if locally appointed ones are inactive or they reach out for help [19:17:26] Zppix: 2020-04-25 - 16:46:24CDT tell Zppix Email ETA? [19:17:52] But no one is talking about these groups overriding, they would only act if the local admins are not active [19:17:53] Hello JojoBabie! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [19:17:57] And that's the way it should remain [19:18:08] No one is proposing to change that... [19:18:21] Hi JojoBabie, can we help? [19:18:28] So what exactly do we want to add to the CVT group? [19:18:49] Technically the only people that should act with using admin tools are sysadmins when handling ToU/Content policy/Copyright/etc [19:19:40] Well, copyright violations should be left to local sysop to delete assuming they are active [19:19:49] (though CP and Copyright can be handled by anyone) [19:20:08] The other stuff should perhaps trigger a Warning first and then only if the local admins don't do anything, act [19:20:42] AmandaCath: in the event of a DCMA, we have to act on copyviod [19:20:47] Copyios* [19:20:50] different wikis can choose different licenses [19:21:08] ~~DCMA~~ lawful request [19:21:15] So what's a copyvio on one wiki may not be on another [19:21:15] Or not DCMA now, whatever the uk one is [19:21:20] JohnLewis: that’s the word [19:21:51] [02mw-config] 07Hispano76 synchronize pull request 03#3029: [NEEDS REVISION] Adding CommentStream settings in ManageWiki - 13https://git.io/JfUKr [19:21:52] AmandaCath: if we got a lawful request, lawyers don’t always like waiting for local admins. Someone will act. [19:22:37] Of course, assuming the request is valid (that's my point with different licenses) [19:23:03] Different licenses don't have a material impact on copyright infringements (per wiki that is) [19:23:18] The license of the content is all that matters, which will remain constant regardless of local wiki [19:23:29] What JohnLewis said [19:24:11] Well, if some external material is licensed under CC No Derivatives, but the wiki explicitly allows derivatives... [19:24:16]